That would be horribly unbalanced, whatever your opinion is. Especially because we're now in 4V4, every single person that goes down is more important for most game types. Sure, OHK is a good idea when it lands, but making it slow brings balance to the force. Roaming supers, though useful in PVP, are not the be all and the end all. Also, it isn't the only non-roaming super. The alternate Sentinel activation allow them to place a bubble, which is a non-roaming application of their super. However, this would easily be programmable for being weaker to energy weapon damage, so it's not an issue. Not hard to hit a target that doesn't move after all. So really, they just have to balance the health pool. The only other non-roaming super that MIGHT be brought into the game is the Nightstalker tether, which already functions with a health pool, so they just have to make it weaker to energy weapons.

Yes, but with only 4v4 it also means what are the chances of a none roaming super actually hitting 2+ people while a roaming super can free roam and find 2+ people? The big issue with FOH was that you could only use it properly when you found 2+ people bunched up together which sometimes was not that often. Sentinel bubble is not an offensive super so this doesn't entirely count as the super does not have the ability to actually kill the opposition. Nightstalker is an interesting one as it's the only super I'm aware of that doesn't have to use the whole super bar in a single go, shame it's not currently confirmed. Again just my opinion, if Nova bomb cannot kill the other free roam supers then it will be the least used and worst super by a mile, second only to the bubble due to the fact is cannot kill.

I do agree that when a regular nova bomb hits another player, it should kill them. When they're in their own super... maybe, maybe not, but if it doesn't then the person in super should at low enough health that the warlock can follow up with an energy weapon and take them out. But your claims that Sentinel bubble and the insistence on 2+ people being the important thing are a little short sighted. The only two game types that we've seen so far (and apparently we're only starting with 5) have been objective based. We're not getting Rumble, so the only other "just get kills" kind of playlist should be Clash, and Skirmish will drop away. Maybe we'll have straight supremacy matches, though it will likely be a modifier. That means that for most of the games, tactics are more important than straight up kills. Most roaming super guardians will leave an area to search for a kill when they should defend it. Unfortunate, but true. But even if they are there defending it when a Voidwalker comes up... The Nova Bomb will be enough of a "deterrent" to clear the area. That gives the Voidwalker a HUGE tactical advantage for Control and Countdown (which are also the only game types we're getting in the beta). Add to this the range from which Nova Bomb can be used, instead of having to get up close and personal like Fist of Havoc in Destiny 1. Don't discount it so soon. Yes, it's not the same as other supers, but they're showing a little bit more creativity with it now than in Destiny 1. That means they've likely been experimenting with it and this is one of the better solutions.

Your OP was not directed around game types etc, it was on the warlock super, my only argument was it against other supers not it's main utility in game. The reason Titans absolutely sucked ass in PVP Y1 was because they had no super with the ability to kill people outside of groups (1 kill will always be a wasted super) and no range meaning the only game mode they had a decent use in was control their only real use super V super was to shut down blade dancer, a void warlock would KO a Titan bubble or FOH. same as a solar warlock could do or a golden gun could do. in TDM the objective is to get the number of kills and in any game mode including control the best way to score is to kill (at the correct time in control of course) , the enemy is approaching the objective you want to kill him to stop him damaging you or taking the objective and gain 1-3 points depending on positions held, if a super is not an effective killer it's not going to see much utility. If a super can roam killing 2+ people it's going to be more useful than any super than can kill 1 person and very occasionally more depending on circumstances outside the player's control. Again purely my opinion based on what we have currently seen. I'm being short sighted deliberately as we don't have enough information to be matter of fact about anything currently. We can only speculate and provide opinions, I want nova to land properly within the sandbox in a balanced manner, I honestly beleive for it to be balanced it will need to be a very large area of effect or stronger than the majority of other supers to the extent it can kill them in one go to make up for lack of roaming (PVP super V super).

You're right, my original post was not originally about game types. And yes, you started a comparison. But your comparison was in regards to pure damage output, which skews the argument unjustly. I brought in game types as a way of showing that, hey, tactical usage of supers is actually INCREDIBLY important, not just damage output, and for the game types we're going to be playing the most, Nova Bomb has incredible tactical values that other supers don't have. So the game type discussion IS relevant, and shouldn't just be disregarded because my main topic wasn't about game types. That's how discussions evolve and change. You brought up number of kills as an importance, I've countered with tactical usage in a tactical heavy gametypes crucible as importance. Sentinel bubble, Voidwalker Nova Bomb, and Nightstalker tether (if it is brought back) are the only supers that now have that advantage. We've lost the Striker's one hit area of effect (which was DEVASTATING in the correct situations, such as claiming heavy ammo, controlling zones, clearing titan bubbles, etc.) and the Sunsinger Resurrection, which was good for more sneaky tactical advantages. So Nova Bomb is now even MORE unique and even MORE valuable because of this. The next major issue is the suggestion that Titans sucked in Year One. In PVP, yes, they had a lower K/D ratio, and Hunters were the majority of top tier players because top tier players were judged individually and based on K/D, which their roaming supers allowed them to dominate. But Bungie has seen the error in that way and begun to change that system of judgement by bringing in an Efficiency rating and getting RID of K/D. And that won't even account for the tactical decisions that players will have to make, so it's still not perfect. The Destiny One judgement system was what sucked ass, not Titans. One kill can change the flow of a match if it prevents the winning team from picking up heavy ammo. One kill can be useful if it stops the winning team from capturing mid-point and allows the losing team to catch up in terms of score. There are critical moments that the absolute domination of the Striker FoH has allowed to turn the tide in their team's favor. My point isn't that you're being short-sighted because you haven't seen everything, but because you aren't seeing the possible applications of these supers BEYOND the number of kills they get. And that's a problem, because unless people group up it will, at best, only ever be 2 kills, and that will never be enough for you. Instead, you should be looking at the map control that it presents (which was one of the best things about Nightstalker) and how it ALSO has the potential to dominate in tactical situations. And yes, that's different to my OP, but you've gone down a different path in the discussion, so I'm addressing you and your path now. And in terms of effective ability to kill, I've already AGREED that it shouldn't be so underpowered that it doesn't kill people outside their supers, I've just said that maybe it shouldn't OHK people with full health IN supers, but at least leave them on the brink of death so the Voidwalker can finish them off with weapons. But think about it the other way around. If you're an Poledancer trying to murder a Nova Bomb (who already has a ton of tactical advantages to offset his usually poorer K/D) and they just get to one shot you from across the map... I mean, Fist of Havoc was at least more balanced in that regard as they had to be at close range as well.

Wow, major wall of text, I'm gonna bullet point my response to each paragraph for hopeful ease of reading. I'm all up for chatting about this, I hope none of my responses have seemed in disrespect I love having a good discussion of two different points of view. 1) Yes the tactical use of a super is important, but killing is also a tactical part of a super, everything from its deployment to where you go who you choose to kill and in what order. While I did not intend to put down on the other parts of tactically using a super I was focusing on the main point which for most supers is the ability to easily remove an opponent or at the very least the threat (supers like tether/ bubble of course function differently). 2) Some of the tactical elements described can be achieved with grenades such as striker Titan lightning grenade the striker now being free-roam may also have the ability to still leave an after effect we cannot be sure. We don't know for sure that any super will still behave as it did leaving after effects and similar if Nova doesn't have an after effect this would limit it's tactical use significantly. 3) Perhaps I should re-word, in Y1 Titans got the short straw which resulted in them suffering significantly in PVP content when only 1 of your two supers could counter another super being blade dancer that put other supers at a significant tactical advantage. Bubble for example while great if no one against you had a super at that time was very very easily destroyed by any and all other supers. Striker Titans are a lot better now that in Y1 when they would often die before their tactical advantage could see the light of day. 4) I'm admittedly skimping on the pure tactical side of each super because ultimately killing the opposition is in most cases the best case scenario, in control if you can kill the enemy before they can get into the control zone that's better than having a AOE object delaying them getting into it, the times where the type of utility you're talking about does see advantage is if you die but have that AOE item in the correct place. This, of course, is not in reference to Super V Super which was the main point I was looking to address I do appreciate each super has in certain cases other utilities eg sentinel with the shield throw or to protect you. 5) Gonna have to agree to disagree :) I personally think it should be the FOH ranged of Y1 eg 1 hit KO in or out of super max health or not, when you look at golden gun with 3/6 shots that appear to KO out of super but not in super surely a single massive ball of death should alway kill in a single hit??? The other issue is this, if a nova bomb doesn't 1 hit KO other supers whats to stop the sentinel or pole dancer from killing you instantly after you have used your Nova bomb? We have seen that both these classes have speed to get across the field to you quickly? Nova was to the best of my knowledge a 1 hit KO throughout D1 unless a solar goat head warlock could tank it (I never found out). I'm glad there are people who have different opinions, the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same thing.

Bullet points is a great idea. Should make this discussion much more amenable for both of us. = ( 1) The reason I still think you're ignoring the tactical use of it is because we're discussing balance. And while, yes, the overall kill count of it looks to be down, the fact that it is so tactically unique and dominant (no other super clears a whole control zone like Nova Bomb now, not nearly as quickly) is a balancing factor, and I believe that with a game that is now much more heavily reliant on tactics (the HUD is changed, the class abilities give tactical advantages, there are more tactical game modes now) that increases its value as a super. Yes, if it were just about kill count, it would be behind purely by the nature of being a single serve scoop. But in the current meta... 2) Striker has been confirmed as having Aftermath in the second subclass tree. Personally, I hope that's in the endgame purely for PVE purposes, as they're set to disorient, but I get your point. You could set up a ton of them around the entrances to Rugs on the Midtown map during Countdown to protect the charge. But in that regard, Nova Bomb has a better clearing rate at important moments, as you can kill all guardians in that area in one go. All the factors over Nova Bomb (health pool, size of bomb, size of explosion, damage of explosion, speed of bomb, tracking of bomb, after effects, etc.) have to be balanced, but having a slower moving bomb doesn't mean its automatically unbalanced, which is my main argument. 3) I see what you mean now about Striker, especially in comparison to Defender. Though I will also observe that that was Year One (which was full of difficulties from Development Hell that Bungie wanted to overcome) and was severely unbalanced in many regards. As soon as Titans were given Sunbreaker... things CHANGED. They shot to the top of the list. 4) Let me give a couple examples to show how important tactics are in DESTINY 2. Because, remember, that's what we're talking about here. I just watched Unknown Player in a match of Countdown on Midtown. And in the last two rounds that they were defending on, the opposing team had the charge planted on A, which is out in the open except for a cart in the road. And a titan on that team popped a barrier next to the cart and near the charge while battle was happening elsewhere. In the first round they also pulled super, and instead of running out and killing people, he sat in cover of cart and barrier and supered anybody that came near. He saved his super up and won them the round despite being last on his team. And in the second round he did the same with a shotgun. Instead of being a tank machine, he played smart and singlehandedly won those two rounds, and the match. There's a LOT more tactics play available now. Kills alone are not going to win matches. 5) This paragraph is a bit confusing, so I'll just give my general sense. Dunno what FOH is. Golden Gun in Destiny 2 (forget Year One, we're not playing Year One anymore) looks like it won't kill another guardian in 1 hit if they're in their super. Good. It shouldn't. It's also got a SEVERE timer restriction if it's got 6 shots, so that's a LARGE limit on it. Either 3 shots with enough time (and 2 go into one super, so you have time to get 1 other kill) or 6 shots to use at a critical moment and not time to roam with it. By the same degree, massive ball of death should OHK guardians that aren't in super (like all supers) and NOT OHK guardians that ARE in supers (like all supers), but find a different way to balance them. And considering that there will be seekers after that initial explosion, that might be enough to finish them off, but still give a chance to escape death. And THAT'S the point. There needs to be a chance to escape a super in PVP. That's why everyone hated OP Bladedancer and FOH... oh, it's Fist of Havoc. Yeah, it shouldn't be like FOH Year One. It should be like all the other supers in this new game that is new and has new rules and new balances. 6) We've seen really good footage of Sentinel and Poledancer, (and also poorly aimed footage of Voidwalker). But I've just seen some pretty bad Poledancer play on the Unknown Player stream. The same way you can miss TERRIBLY with Striker, you can miss with Poledancer. And I'd assume it's the same with Sentinel, because the Sentinel in that recent Sentinel VS Arcstrider footage was severly outplayed. If you hit them with a Nova Bomb from afar, you can IMMEDIATELY pull out an energy weapon and put probably 2 to 4 shots (dependind on weapon type) into them to finish them. So Nova Bombing from up close would likely be a bad idea, but that makes sense. No other super in the game is a OHK against another super, and I don't think this should be different. Balance it right, yes, but don't make it OHK. Okay, maybe my bullet points didn't help TOO much... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3mJq3SZY5Y Voidwalker look from Beta. Looks like one moves slowly, the other moves regular speed. One that goes regular speed will leave AOE, one that goes slowly can break into smaller pieces. If you want, we can reset the conversation and start from this new, more stable ground, to figure out pros and cons.

We both have actual facts to work with rather than opinions so I will reply to each bullet point in short so we can discuss the actual details of the supers now :) 1) I'm not ignoring the tactical side of things I'm focusing on a specific part (the killing) I'm mostly doing this to keep things simple as otherwise we end up comparing every subclass across both trees to each other. I will agree Nova will now be the strongest area clearing super. 2) I'm inclined to agree, Nova does have the best clearing rate, I class this as a benefit that I separate from its ability to kill, similar to how Striker can kill and leave an AOE behind I class a supers ability to kill as part of its tactical use. 3) Y1 Titans just didn't have a good time in PVP, when Sunbreaker came out they gained something that was initially OP until it was nerfed to oblivion, it's pretty balanced now with the other D1 supers I think. 4) I agree tactics are of course important, as I said everything from when you use your super who you use it own must be considered. Part of my argument is that I'm not trying to think about the tactical use of the super in specific game modes because I'm trying to look at the balance of it as a whole. Yes Nova might be preferred in Control as it had AOE and area control/clearing, but in say TDM these provide much less of a tactical advantage, Nova needs to be balanced across all game modes which still leads me to think it should be a 1 hit KO, I don't think it shouldn't be avoidable tho. 5) FOH (fists of Havok) my comparison was based on fists of havoks ability to kill anything in one go in year 1, ( and then Golden gun in D2 as we knew it to be at that time) I believe Nova in D2 will need to have this tactical advantage to remain competitive across all game modes, otherwise why would I not use dawn blade where I can 1 hit KO most things and fire about 5 shots of for that matter? If Dawn blade can 2 hit someone in super this gives it a competitive edge across more game modes. ( when comparing just the two warlock supers to one another) 6) I haven't watched the footage and I haven't yet played PVP in the Beta, I had enough time last night to try sentinel and dawn blade in the first mission. overall the weapons felt weaker but that could be down to light. I haven't watched any of the gameplay yet so I reserve my opinion with the new facts for my next response after I have watched and maybe tried a few of these. One thing I did think, further to my original thought was regarding the two different nova bomb options to which my opinion has now slightly changed: Nova 1 (slow) This is one large explosion with tracking coming from the initial large explosion I somewhat think the initial slow large ball should be a 1 hit KO while the small tracking blobs do some damage to anyone in close proximity. (if someone in super survived the initial big hit the small blobs would kill them anyway is my thinking. Nova 2 (faster traditional) This one I can agree should be a 1 hit out of super while almost killing someone in super mostly because it's got a quicker utility and can't really be avoided, the AOE would also potentially kill anyone in super after the initial blast anyway. I know this is not exactly how these are working at current, this is more what I think would bring them to a more level playing field, I must admit the sentinel is no where near the OP thing everyone thought it was going to be.

You know what? Actually, the amount of times we're going in circles because I keep saying something and you keep taking it the wrong way... I think we should just drop it. I'm all for friendly conversation and debate, but not when it gets this... repetitive. Prime example, I said I thought you were ignoring the tactical side of things, and I gave Control as an example, one of many possiblities. You just responded, "I'm not ignoring the tactical side of things I'm focusing on..." Then, later, you said, "Part of my argument is that I'm not trying to think about the tactical use of the super in specific game modes because I'm trying to look at the balance of it as a whole." I'm trying to tell you that you can't ignore the tactical application of the super in ANY situation. You are accepting it when it is a LOW tactical application, even arguing for it, but you are "trying not to think about [it]" when it has a HIGH tactical application. I wasn't using Control as an example of ALL-the-time Nova, but rather as a show of potential. Just the same way you would look at the roaming supers and their application in Clash to show how much more useful they are in that situation. And MUCH more of Destiny 2 is being made into tactical game modes now. You can't focus more on the killing application if you want to discuss BALANCE, you have to look at the class as a whole, potential/pros and fallbacks/cons. And what I'm trying to say to you is that you are so stuck on "how does it kill I want it to kill" (and Year One for that matter) that you are ignoring more pressing and important areas of the super, let alone the subclass. So if you can get past that to discuss the actual balance, I'd LOVE to talk about this subclass with you, particularly now that I've seen the abilities in action, especially the grenade charging. But if not... I don't think it's an area I want to spend my time on.

Alright then, guess we need to look at the big big picture - I'm gonna try to keep this short so we don't get stuck in these big chats. Nova is split into two trees, each tree has a different set of tactical advantages, you can break these tactical advantages into a few core groups, feel free to expand if you think I'm missing something: 1 Tactical kill - Removes player from game to respawn 2 Tactical preventative action eg AOE in a good area 3 Tactical clearing Something Nova has always been good for is point 2 and 3, It's not by any means bad at point 1 but lack of free roam has always limited it's killing use to the people in from of it combining point 1 and 3 together. Using nova (tree 2 Fast nova) tactically, for example, might include killing 1 or 2 of the opposition in a key area be it a control zone, a doorway or entrance etc you get what I mean. Using Nova (tree 1 slow tracking) tactically will be different as I don't believe it has an area of effect but due to it's tracking it could be used to chase a fleeing opposition back to his team when bunched together. This is especially good for clearing due to tracking and mini tracking after the initial hit. So by my argument and for the sake of balance let's pit Nova against a single in super Guardian of a few types ( yes this is not often how PVP or anything works but then we would have inbalance anyway) Nova V Golden gun - if Nova did not kill GG Nova will most likely die due to two shot timing - I expect Nova should 1 hit KO GG at the very least but GG should also 1hit a Nova before release Nova V Dawn blade - 1 if not 2 Dawn blade hits ( if inaccurate) will be easily fired off before a nova could hit the Dawn blade and not kill it by your suggestion. Nova V striker/Sentinel /Pole dancer Nova should win out against these 3 in your suggested scenario as they are all limited in range attacks allowing for hit Energy swap shot Nova V Striker in utility of our earlier tactical plays Nova can area clear a single section in one hit Striker can clear multiple areas while free roaming but doesn't have range If both kill they are balanced in my mind because they both have similar tactical advantages if Nova doesn't kill in super then Striker's only limit is its ability to kill directly against Nova? The reason my focus in my responses has always been related to killing is because my argument from my OP was related to the fact I believed and still do that Nova bomb should kill a guardian who is in super. At no point was my argument against its ability to be tactical or useful in various means therefore I'm not trying to argue against its additional use or function, my single and only argument was its ability to kill others in super. If it can't kill other in super users it by my opinion is at a tactical disadvantage in main plays, if you cannot kill when clearing with slow Nova with no after effect then you're pretty much just throwing a large grenade to do some damage which I don't feel is very super. I will also bring back my change of opinion on the killing utility of each of the trees from my last post as below: Nova 1 (slow) This is one large explosion with tracking coming from the initial large explosion I somewhat think the initial slow large ball should be a 1 hit KO while the small tracking blobs do some damage to anyone in close proximity. (if someone in super survived the initial big hit the small blobs would kill them anyway is my thinking.) Nova 2 (faster traditional) This one I can agree should be a 1 hit out of super while almost killing someone in super mostly because it's got a quicker utility and can't really be avoided, the AOE would also potentially kill anyone in super after the initial blast anyway. On a less serious note, have you seen how aggressive the tracking is on the type 1 tree? It's pretty crazy. Also the grenade or health recharge are very intersting additions, Certainly makes the warlock look like it got the most attention.

Starting a new bullet point system. It doesn't match up to your previous post quite right, it's more to seperate my post and make it more readable. = P 1) I think that's a great summary of tactical applications. I do think there is more to the list, but most of the items that I would put on it are quite small and wouldn't make too much difference, except for super cancelling (if it does OHK people in supers, then that is a GREAT tactical advantage). 2) Let me also give you good news from what I've seen. The Nova Bomb DOES OHK guardians in super. I was watching Voidwalker gameplay and they came around a corner to find Captain America coming at them, pulled their super, and there was no more Sentinel. 3) And yes, after more consideration, I'm alright with your analysis from previous post. If you're slow enough to get killed by Slova Bomb, fine, let it OHK. And let AOE Bomb from the other tree not QUITE OHK, but bring close. 4)However, I will observe that BOTH Nova Bombs have an after effect of some kind. AOE might leave a field, but Slova also has seekers whether it gets shot down or not. Detonation is the word it uses for when there's a seeker, and no matter what, once its been cast... it detonates. That's part of why I was saying it shouldn't OHK, as I was also balancing for Seekers to finish off guardians. 5) I will also say that not OHKing an enemy, while it is less advantageous than definitely OHKing an enemy, does not necessarily make the super underpowered compared to Dawnblade. Personally I'm more concerned for Striker in that regard (as Sentinel is pretty much melee with a LOT more versatility, so... not sure why people would play striker, especially when the second tree will have Shoulder Charge melee too). It's still in how you apply it, and Dawnblade has certainly got some advantages, but Nova Bomb would still have its own.

Yeah the last point somewhat was more a breakdown to better explain my point of view and more the reason behind my focus on the killing element. 1) I agree there are other utilities, I tried to stick to the Nova specific ones and keep them to the main hats. 2) Snova should be 1KO if it wasn't I would have major worries for how easy it might be to remove from play. I'm still wondering if you can outrun it or make it hit a wall if it's chasing you or if it has a timer to explode ( fun experiments to be had) 3) It doesn't quite work as per my suggestion, but I think this would be a nice way to have it. 4) The Snova after effect is just the tracking mini orbs right? This has a nice utility but it's not as helpful as the faster nova with it's proper AOE effect? - I'm still wondering about point 2 running away from Snova and the ability to somehow avoid it (make it hit a team mate ;) or something ) - Otherwise it might be a tad OP. 5) completely agree except I actually think Striker has better utility than Sentinel, it feels quicker and seeing as they are both mostly close combat the striker with it's AOE and smash attack area personally seem more useful to me. Dawn blade and Nova both as you said in the current Beta have their pros and cons but outside of not knowing if you can run away or avoid the Snova they seem pretty balanced to me? What are your current thoughts? Ps, check out this tracking https://twitter.com/TakeMeHaya/status/887467690670948353

2) As to your experiments, this is what I've seen. No timer to explode. (I've seen one thrown terribly at a set of Psions on a ridge drift off into the distance during the strike. It was comical.) That DOES also mean that it has to be aimed properly on activation, and it does appear to prefer the person you've aimed it at, so getting it to hit friends... you'd have to stand right behind them. I have seen it avoid a wall in order to track a person that had travelled further than the wall... but if you stand right behind the wall... that's something I'd love to test too. The one thing I HAVEN'T seen is whether or not you can outrun it. 2 & 4) The thing about the Slova, though, is that it has all of the perks it has. It isn't just a Slova bomb that explodes with seekers. And shooting it doesn't just turn it into seekers. Shooting it detonates it (and believe me, the radius of the blast isn't small at all, at least, not in PVE) and THEN there are seekers AS WELL. Being hit by the main detonation and a seeker should always be enough for a OHK, I'd say, even if the initial blast isn't... except the ONE occasion where the Voidwalker detonates early, in which case radius should matter. And once again, no idea about outrunning. 5) The radius of the Striker smash (being non-personal) versus the defensive capabilities of the Sentinel shield is a good trade off either way, you're right. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Nothing much else to offer at the moment. ...alright, having seen that video with the tracking (and all the girl giggling = P) maybe there IS a timer on the explosion? Or maybe the match just ran out? But it looks like you can DEFINITELY outrun it as long as it doesn't have an infinite tracker. I now will no longer call it Slova Bomb. It is, from now on, the Track Star. Okay, so, 8:53, good Voidwalker pointers, and demonstration of what I mean about the Track Star early detonation. Watch through until 9:40 at least, and pay attention to the psions. That explosion radius is HUGE. The rest of the video is worth watching too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRn1jhiskV8&index=84&list=PLXbfY3Jo1cFIiuhXIc5tq3jdpXt2V8fuo

Video looks good with some clear points as to pros and cons of each new super, I can't decide what I actually like the most, Titans feel clunky and the abilities don't suit my PVE playing style anymore, I used to main Bubble with Weapons of light but now I question what a Titan can do against a raid boss for example, throw down a general bubble? Just doesnt have the same feel. Currently regardless of everyone else moaning I like the new arc hunter. I'm somewhat holding out in the hope we have 3 other subclasses that haven't been announced.

There's a LOT of circumstantial evidence for the 3rd subclasses, though no confirmation it will be the TTK ones. They're probably the most likely, but still, no confirmation. I was DEATHLY afraid for the Arcstrider in PVE. I knew that it would be alright in PVP (definitely "alright") and it COULD be good at add clearing (which it is, thank goodness). But for boss encounters Bladedancer was always... it was only ever useful for making a couple orbs on a couple adds and then invisibility for revives. And as a PVE player, I was concerned that Arcstrider would be the exact same. But twice now I have laid into the Modular Mind and not only done SIGNIFICANT damage with my Arc Staff, but lived. And for an Arc Hunter... I feel like that's a world first. So I'm happy. In terms of raid applications for Titans... Aside from class abilities I'm not seeing TOO much advantage from one class to another. The second Gunslinger tree will award orbs for getting Precision shots on GG and increased damage; cool, and with only one power ammo slot... that much damage will be useful. Then there's Voidwalker with the only one-and-done super, and depending on whether or not the AOE Bomb's after effect makes the boss move, it might have both trees be useful. Overcooking grenades with a double grenade perk exotic would be nice... but not particularly effective. Aside from that, it will all depend on how creative Bungie gets with their raid design. Everybody is saying that for the raid encounters they'll want the Rally Barricade and Empowering Rift to increase DPS, and that would certainly be useful. I would imagine that, if the boss is firing back still, having a Sentinel with their shield blocking would also be incredibly helpful. Or maybe you can pop a bubble behind and people can step back into it for a moment. Maybe. But if the raid bosses aren't just like Warpriest and Golgoroth, and maybe you can pick your OWN time to damage them... then having a Striker Titan with the second tree on and Aftermath planting those stun spot around the boss by slamming it in a triangle could be quite useful too. Once again, it all comes down to how creative Bungie is, but you're right, it'll be interesting to see whether or not they do a good job of making everyone useful like in WotM (except Bladedancer... RIP). To me, the big question now is... what are the exotics going to do? Because those CAN greatly alter the game and improve the versatility of these subclasses immensely. If we saw the return of Helm of Saint-14, that would be a boon to the Sentinel of course, especially if there's an advantage aside even when you DON'T pop the bubble. Or maybe there will be one that adds a weapons or blessing of light effect. There's possibilities, is all...

Exotics and weapon modifications are the two things I'm now curious about, I'm hoping along with others than the recharge rates on well everything will be better in the official release, hunter takes what feels like 30 seconds before heath starts to recover and so on, very D1 just been revived ( I guess it's a new game so they can get away with it). The raid combos are going to be the warlock rift along with the mini shield from the titan I expect, if GG gets a DPS buff which it should for PVE then it will be able to have great utility with 6 head shots on a boss. I cant decide how raid mechanics are going to work as well in D2, the weapon load out changes personally remove the ability to have the same variation in tactics, eg Kings fall raid, there are at least a few times when sniping followed up by sword etc was so useful, I will be missing my scout/HC with a sniper and sword/Rocket combos.

Houndish just pointed out in a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPukMoBFyO4 that in other versions of the game that we've seen, when they've hovered over the armor, they HAVE had perks for better ability generation on boots and helmets, etc. So it's very likely that you'll be able to speed them up, you'll just might have to pick and choose which ones. There are other perks too (improved movement while aiming), but better ability generation should be an armor thing. Which I'm fine with. The pace of the game is what it is, as long as it works well... I'm alright and I'll adapt. I'm just glad that Crucible isn't ability spam central right now. GG won't get 6 head shots on a boss, it can either do head shots or it can have 6 shots. We don't know how many shots it will get in the lower tree (I'm hoping for 4 but it's likely just 3 again), but that tree has a perk that allows GG to do precision damage, and another that means GG Precision hits increase damage and duration for GG, and spawning orbs is on one of those two. So you've got 6 weaker shots, or 3-4 shots that go up in damage with precision hits. I expect most people will use the top path for adds and the bottom for bosses. But no 6Xprecision (that would be WAY too OP). The weapon variation still exists pretty well in the new game. No, it's not as powerful, but I can picture a LOT of people sitting behind rally barricades firing off all their rockets, popping up and down to shoot and reload, then, with the Omolon Energy Scout that's currently in the beta just going to town on someone like Warpriest, popping up and down again. The biggest shift is in those simplified numbers (no longer doing 300,000 or more per shot on empowered GG for instance) but if that means that fights have to take longer in order to succeed, then they'll just put Enrage later in the run. And with Luke Smith talking about removing the Perma-death factor on Hard Raids, taking a long time might just be a new part of the challenge. That and I'm sure bosses won't need QUITE as much dps to down as they do in Destiny. I'm looking forward to rolling a shotgun or sword on my Hunter though. We start with a sniper and a grenade launcher, but Hunters are forward scouts, so having a distance weapon that matched for being at the back never made sense to me. I guess they're pictured like assassins, but they wouldn't need too much stealth for that, just good cover, so I always ran invisibilty with a shotgun and blasted my way through wizards. = ) What fun.

That sounds better I must admit, although locking your health movement recovery and all the other stat boosters to what you're wearing seems a little much. One thing I'm finding a bit silly about the Beta is that usually it's a small part of the game but as it will be at official release, if theres going to be all these additional options in the main release then a lot of the issues people are facing might not matter anymore. Something I have noticed more today is that all the jumps feel off, the Hunter triple jump each jump doesnt seem to push you as far Titan jump the first ones stronger than the second even when not using that jump style and the warlock jump doesnt seem to be as quick or push you as high? You do make a good point about possible load outs, perhaps I'm living to much in the past, I always enjoyed the whole coming together sniping something during a key moment, I just don't currently feel we will get that from the new raids but in saying that maybe they have managed to put something better together that works around the new weapon load outs. Thanks for the details on GG I was under the impression it could do procision damage regardless now, I was basing my earlier details off how weak the 6 shot GG is currently, a Nova bomb certainly does more damage to a single enemy than the 6 GG shots would do by a significant margin.

What are your specs? I mean, it's likely that things aren't the same as they used to be, as they've made PVP smaller and maps smaller it could make sense to make jumps smaller. But if you've traded your mobility for armor/regeneration then your jump distances and movement speed will go down. And Hunters do start off with more Mobility than the others, so it would make sense that Warlock and Titan struggle to go as high/far. We've got a limited number of guns in the beta. I don't think I've even seen a sword yet. We'll have to wait until the release to see the whole of how the weapon meta functions, unfortunately. Also, People are saying that the tower in the Inverted Spire is a Lost Sector. It's not, it's a Treasure Map. = ) I believe I figured out where the Lost Sector on Nessus ACTUALLY is. I'm going to try and get in tonight.

In D1 I pretty much ran scout sniper and sword since the taken king before That it was scout fusion rockets. I have almost always run max health and close to Mac recovery with as low agility as possible but this feels slower than that's by a significant margin. Indeed we don't have many guns I'm only really enjoying hc and the fusion on the warlock but the attachments could change things up. Let me know how you get on exploring I did some hunting today but didn't get very far the space looks good more thought seems to have gone into the actual world.

Man, being at work is killing me right now. = P

Did you get anywhere exploring? What do you think of the general feel of things at the moment? The world layout feels much better and more involved, interested to see what they do with all the little features to make the world more interactive in the official release. I'm wondering if ghosts or something similar will return to find out in the world it gave a reason to explore all the little places.