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11/13/2014 4:08:16 PM
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TL;DR: You're not an attorney, and Bungie's trade practices were perfectly aboveboard. [quote]I would like to begin by saying I am a licensed attorney and have spent some of my free time looking into this matter (purely out of anger at Bungie, thanks for the motivation guys!). [/quote] So the first sniff test is your handle--Major Payne89 implies you were born in 1989, which makes you about 25. The typical age of college graduation is 21-23, which means if you went straight from university to law school you've just barely finished. So it's not impossible that you're a "licensed attorney", but if so you're a very inexperienced one. [quote]I want Deej to respond to this, because I feel Bungie would much rather have him defend why this game doesn't fit the bill for false advertisement than Bungie's legal department.[/quote] And here's the second sniff test. Actual attorneys don't post actual legal threats on Internet forums, and they [i]definitely[/i] don't post legal threats and then ask the PR guy to address them. So you're not an attorney, and the first two paragraphs of your post are lies. [quote]I'll start with a brief over view...[/quote] Someone with a couple of years of practice briefs behind them would know that "overview" is a single word. [quote]Federal law set up the Federal Trade Commission and directs it to "prohibit entities from engaging in unfair or deceptive acts or practices in interstate commerce." The letter linked above outlines the standards the commission is to use in fulfillment of its mission. The FTC Policy Statement on Deception states that the Commission analyzes deceptive business practices under the following criteria: There must be a representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer. This includes the "use of bait and switch techniques." The practice is examined from the perspective of a reasonable person in the circumstances. If the practice "is directed primarily to a particular group," such as Internet users, "the Commission examines reasonableness from the perspective of that group." The representation, omission or practice must be a material one, i.e., it is likely to affect the consumer's conduct or decision regarding the produce or service... So what does all this legalize mean, exactly?[/quote] It's "legalese", and you're correct that it means is there's a three-pronged test. Unfortunately, you fail to meet the test at any point. [quote]Lets start at the beginning with the hype. Destiny was one of the most hyped games in recent memory.[/quote] Citation needed. [quote]Bungie teased us with trailers, game play footage, and developer interviews. All of these media releases built expectations as to what was in the game.[/quote] "All of these media releases" are also common industry practice for AAA games, as well as analogous entertainment products. Holding Bungie liable on that basis would set a massive precedent, and therefore sets a very high bar for the case you're trying to build. Keep that in mind as we explore the remainder of your claims. [quote]We could see that certain features and mechanics would be in the game. We were explicitly told certain things would be int the game, and that we could expect others. This media frenzy satisfies two prongs of the test outlined above. The practice (of marketing a video game) was directed specifically at a group of people, i.e. video game players.[/quote] That's a tautology: you're saying their marketing was directed specifically at a group largely defined by its interest in the type of good being marketed. If this were held to satisfy the first prong of the test, the test would be meaningless. But even worse, accepting your argument for this prong of the test weakens your claim elsewhere. We proceed: [quote]We as gamers "reasonably relied" on Bungie's claims. They told us- "hey this is what you can do in Destiny, these are the features it will have. Aren't they great." Is it unreasonable for us as a group of people excited to play this game to expect that those features be in said game? Of course not![/quote] This is actually where your argument is strongest, although that's damning with faint praise. The linked Policy Statement on Deception says this: "Certain practices, however, are unlikely to deceive consumers acting reasonably. Thus, the Commission generally will not bring advertising cases based on subjective claims (taste, feel, appearance, smell) or on correctly stated opinion claims if consumers understand the source and limitations of the opinion... The Commission generally will not pursue cases involving obviously exaggerated or puffing representations, i.e., those that the ordinary consumers do not take seriously." A "reasonable person" who has played other video games--that is, the video gamer at which Bungie's marketing push was specifically directed--could be held to understand the source and limitations of that marketing push, namely that the content and gameplay of an early preview may not reflect the final product. In fact, it would be your responsibility as the plaintiff's attorney to demonstrate conclusively that a typical consumer of video games would [i]not[/i] understand that there may be differences between the previewed content and the final product. I doubt that claim would hold up under scrutiny. [quote]Now the big question is are these omissions, i.e. the stuff we were told would be in the game but wasn't, a "material omission"? This means that had you known about the games short comings before it was released would you have bought it?[/quote] Presumably "had you known about the games short comings" means "the game's shortcomings", and I promise I'll stop harping on your errors in spelling and grammar just as soon as you admit that you're lying about your qualifications. Moreover, however, you're underestimating the bar for this test. Again, from the Policy Statement on Deception: "Injury exists if consumers would have chosen differently but for the deception. If different choices are likely, the claim is material, and injury is likely as well. Thus, injury and materiality are different names for the same concept." Accepting for the sake of argument that Bungie's marketing was deceptive, you would need to identify specific aspects of their marketing that were deceptive, forge a causal link between those deceptive practices and the purchase, and then bridge from the purchase to a specific, actionable injury. In other words, you would have to prove (as an example) that people bought the game because they thought they'd be able to swap between two primary weapons. In that case, the injury you've identified is that people own a game where they have three weapon choices instead of four, which falls fairly low on the scale of materiality. Any injury stemming from Bungie's "deceptive" claims has the same problem: you'd have a difficult time convincing a judge or jury to buy the idea that Bungie owes you anything other than what you purchased. [quote]This speaks specifically to the people who relied on Bungie's claims and pre-ordered the game or bought it on the release date. There was no information to rely on at that point other than what Bungie was spewing out about how awesome the game was. Once reviews start to come out, you as a consumer can make a more informed decision about whether the game lives up to the hype. So I can honestly say, had I seen a review about the game I would not have bought it. That, in the legal world is the definition of a "material omission."[/quote] Have I mentioned that you're not an attorney? Because you quite definitely aren't an attorney. You've just torpedoed your entire case by admitting that you could have waited for reviews but didn't. Remember the earlier bits about the "reasonable" consumer? You made a rash purchase based on marketing--that is, opinion claims and puffery--despite the fact that you were in no way compelled to make a pre-release purchase. If you can honestly say "had I seen a review about the game I would not have bought it", you're demonstrating that to the extent an injury exists, it was [i]entirely[/i] avoidable, and you have no claim.
English

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  • He makes some good points but your article sounds like you used destiny as a paper for a constitutional law class. You sound like a fellow political science major.

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  • And the Vorpal Sword +5 cuts through stupidity yet again. (Since Vorpal Swords can cut through anything, stupidity can be cut through as well) lmao D&D reference for the older gamers. :D

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  • Well put.

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  • HAHAHA you, sir, have won...

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  • Can we start referring to comments that go so far just to cut so deep as someone being Vorped?

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  • Why did you even take the time to respond to this moron?

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  • First, because the forum is overrun with nonsense about how bad Destiny is (usually coming from people who hate the game so much they've invested dozens of hours in it), and this is as good a place to push back as any. Second, because this guy is--deliberately or not--actually making people dumber. He's suggesting to anyone who's not particularly informed about the law around fair trade practices that bringing Bungie to federal court to is even remotely plausible; if you read his post uncritically, you might have your frustration vindicated but you're actually even less informed than you were before (because you're now operating on bad information). There's nowhere in life that more ignorance is a good thing, but these forums in particularly are definitely toxic enough without introducing legalistic nonsense to the situation.

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  • This isn't a law firm this is a forum I don't see spelling/grammar as that big of a deal. That said you make good points. Do I feel misled about this game? Yeah kinda. But I could have (and will from now on) wait at least a day for reviews. That is a risk I think people should expect with pre orders. And I think pre order trends are part of the reason hype wagons are what they are. Talk about how awesome fluffy bunny simulator is and people will pre order it. Why not shift unfulfillable hype train into overdrive? I think say, a 48 hour return window would kill this trend.

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  • It's just a bunch of entitled little boys bro. No big deal. I'm pretty sure you and I walk around our home cities and spot them from a mile away. Has nothing to do with being an internet tough guy. It's simply a matter of intelligence and understanding of the situation. I like Destiny quite a bit. I do wish it had more content but I can't think of a game where I didn't.

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  • Allow me to say, your arguments are very valid, but we need to consider the lack of content. Bungie painted an image for our community of a space shooter on the scale of skyrim. Unfortunately, this is far from it. Set as an MMO RPG, destiny should have had many more missions to fit this genera. From the amount of missions and features, I would believe that this was an indie build if it wasn't for the graphics and mechanics. And don't use that to shoot back at me, those are the only parts that live up to the title.

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  • Please quote where Destiny said it would be a game on the scale of skyrim. A link would do just fine.

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  • They never said it would be like skyrim, but "open world, become legend and epic adventure" is how they marketed destiny and what skyrim was

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  • 由Nourface編輯: 11/13/2014 9:07:49 PM
    So then you are just making false statements based on opinion. Ok gotcha

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  • No, by using loaded words that are associated with things, they evoke thoughts of those and associate their game with it. Basic advertisement. I'm off

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  • 由Nourface編輯: 11/13/2014 9:29:21 PM
    Accusation by association based on personal interpretation. Awesome.

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  • *ahem*, PWNed. Excellent post. I have close family members that are lawyers / own a law firm, and this post is atrocious. No case. Someone who merely adores seeing their own post and needs to use spell check. Badly.

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  • Looks like you need to quit destiny and go play sherlock holmes. Mofo deduces like you just marathoned all of the seasons lol.

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  • 由Despair編輯: 11/13/2014 5:57:16 PM
    Lol I like watching this its interesting.

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  • 由Major Payne89編輯: 11/13/2014 5:59:42 PM
    Firstly, I'm 25, and yes I am newly licensed. Second cool your tits man! It's a Forum post, for christ's sake. Do I think Deej is going to answer? No. Was I a bit tongue and cheek? Yes. am I going to sue? No... That would be a waste of time. I was hoping, I guess some what blindly idealistically, that it would be a good thing to show people the difference between puffery and fraud and how Bungie is just the latest example of an industry that is screwing consumers. While I usually don't respond to this kind of skullduggery (I usually find that people who do nothing but debate word choice and misspellings have no argument), you actually do raise an issue or two I overlooked when making my explanation. Your argument that mine hinges on me refuting my own argument with the whole avoiding the problem by making rational choices. You assume buying a pre-release is irrational, and based on purely economic and common sense arguments it is. I grant that. However, in the law, the "reasonable man" standard is used. This standard is not an average standard. It is what a reasonable person in a like situation would do. If in a given situation a "reasonable man" would make an "unreasonable" decision, that decision is considered reasonable given the circumstances. So the fact that the action is entirely avoidable by simply waiting isn't an issue here because we are talking about the group of gamers who, given similar gamers in similar situations, will ALWAYS pre-order. Therefore, even though the action may seem unreasonable to another person, it is totally reasonable to the group we are looking at.

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  • Mmm. Yeah dude. Stop. Please. Unless of course you did your training online. Which of course means you didn't pass the bar in the California. Hate to tell you this but given that the HQ is in California you would have to have passed the bar here to then file suit. Sorry but you are a f u c k i n g m o r o n.

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  • You are not a lawyer. Please stop

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  • 由Count Ravioli編輯: 11/13/2014 6:26:56 PM
    I have a couple quick questions. I will take you at your word that you are an attorney. The credentials are less important than understanding the legal context of what the FTC stands for, how to apply the legal definition of fraud, in what sense material omission can be applied outside of brokerage (IE, the term is a misnomer here), etc. Fine. Your response to Vorpal guy was more thoughtful. Convoluted and unnecessarily complex, but that's perspective more than anything. So, it's evident, at the very least, you've taken higher education coursework and paid attention. Taking this thought into motion -- do you truly believe Destiny constitutes a legally defensible example of "fraudulent" hardware? That is to say, the pretext of its release was sufficiently different from its original presentation as to create reasonable assumption of deceptive behavior aimed towards consumers? (Main point -- do you really think consumer rights were/are in violation as a result of Bungie's current iteration of Destiny, IE version 1.0?) I ask because your response post suggests critical thinking. If this was all a big waste-of-time/conversation starter, great. I understand that. So...as an attorney/educated person/25 year old adult..do you actually reason actionable, illegal [i]fraud[/i] on the part of Bungie...or were you just using words you thought would provoke discussion? Tell me it's door #2..

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  • you sir are one of the few intelligent people to reply to this post. You ask the question of intent. Whether Bungie would or wouldn't get tagged with violating anything boils down to intent. If they just screwed up and made a bad game and used puffery to say this will be the greatest game ever, then no they didn't do anything wrong. However, if they intentionally mislead people. As tons of people who have more free time than I have documented on this forum, there is at least some evidence that suggests yes, they did. Would it rise to the level of actual fraud and bad trade practices, I don't know. Would this hold up in court? It might. Again, I am not trying to skewer Bungie here, more the practice in general. What other industry to you make a purchase and then have no recourse what-so-ever when you aren't satisfied with the product? The industry has started to take that no return policy further inch by inch to what we have today. Companies buying franchises in order to capitalize on a name. They produce a game that falls way short of its predecessors and make a tidy profit of the fan base. Now it's got to the point where they also go "hold on, the game isn't complete. We have DLC. It will get better." As a way to keep you chasing the carrot on the stick. It has to stop and the only way we can do this is boycott, which will never work because of logistics or make the claim that what the companies are doing is wrong legally.

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  • [quote]Firstly, I'm 25, and yes I am newly licensed.[/quote] Okay, sure. Moving on. [quote]Your argument that mine sucks hinges on me refuting my own argument with the whole avoiding the problem by making rational choices.[/quote] No, it hinges on the fact that you don't actually meet any of the three prongs of the FTC test for deceptive practices. The fact that you acknowledge that you know what the remedy is and could have used it had you wished is merely the cherry on top of the sundae. To sum up: your claim hinges on the idea that a reasonable consumer would have understood all previews, trailers, etc. of Destiny as statements of fact about the game, rather than exaggeration, puffery, or opinion, and that the mismatch between the previewed material and the final product constitutes a substantial injury. That's a relatively difficult standard to meet in the abstract, and here it's effectively impossible. Most members of the target audience are adults who have experienced other marketing efforts for similar products, explicitly including other products that were popularly considered letdowns. Moreover, you'd have to demonstrate--probably to a judge and jury made up of non-gamers--that the differences between the delivered game and the previewed one represent an injury. *** As far as pre-orders are concerned, I don't see any reason a "reasonable man" standard should mean someone who always pre-orders everything. Rough numbers from googling news reports indicate that Activision sold about 10 million units at launch, and expect to sell as many as 18 million in total--which means you're ignoring about 45% of all projected Destiny customers as not "reasonable". *** And finally, when you talk about an industry that's screwing consumers, take a breath and step back. You, personally, have about 30 hours of play time invested in Destiny, meaning (at $70 for your purchase) you paid about $2.33 an hour for the value you've received so far. (Apparently you were so alarmed and injured by the evident lack of content at, say, 10 hours that you... uh, kept playing?) But that's actually decent value! Watching a bad movie at the theater is likely to cost more like $5-6 per hour; a mediocre dinner out when you expected a good one is probably more like $15 per hour. I don't agree with the assertion that Destiny is a bad game, but you're entitled to your opinion. What you're not entitled to is redress based on the fact that you expected more from the game than you got. Quoting the FTC Policy Statement on Unfairness, now: "In most cases a substantial injury involves monetary harm, as when sellers coerce consumers into purchasing unwanted goods or services... [b]Emotional impact and other more subjective types of harm, on the other hand, will not ordinarily make a practice unfair.[/b]." Whatever you think about industry practices around marketing of AAA titles, your dissatisfaction with this purchase does not translate to deceptive or unfair practice, and does not entitle you to anything more than the license you purchased.

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  • [quote]I don't agree with the assertion that Destiny is a bad game, but you're entitled to your opinion. What you're not entitled to is redress based on the fact that you expected more from the game than you got. [/quote] Important thought. Presenting pre-release demonstration is central to most every facet of marketing. Increasing consumer interest by showcasing provocative product features translates into revenue and industry growth. Misinterpreting pre-launch demonstration as an absolute statement of corporate guarantee as to what will be released -- is a deficit of the individual in most cases. If a product was, say -- a hoverboard. Advertised as being able to hover. And when purchased, the board does NOT hover, then there is room for recompense, as the product's central feature was determined to summarily inaccurate/misleading and constitutes deceptive behavior aimed at increasing consumer confidence without intention of delivery. That is fraud. Changing a game around so that it's an unrecognizable mess - as some would suggest - could be fraudulent if Bungie advertise key gameplay elements (like saying it's a FPS MMO and then selling us a Barbie Adventure title instead) were absent upon release. Like you, I don't think Bungie acted fraudulently. At all. By a long shot. I think personnel changes and gameplay design errors bungled a grand game into a very good alternative.

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