Actually, you missed the whole point. as a healer, thats your role, and people in that situation, everyone knows you will get hit with an rng dot and it is the HEALERS JOB/ROLE to take of that aspect of the raid. In this, whose job is it to do waht? how do you prepare people for random jobs? Not only that, how do you plan when it randomly bugs and sends 1, 2, or NO people? In your situation there can still be planning and strategy involved and roles that people need to fulfill, so your example is completely irrelevant to the point i was making. and let me go even further in relation to the last point you made, whats wrong with slapping your friends together?isnt that what Bungie said they WANTED us to do? Even beyond that, they said that this is a shared world in which they want people to interact in and have fun, but who the hell is gonna wanna recruit random or new people to this raid now? You have to recruit a group that you KNOW can fullfill ALL positions in case they are teleported or left outside. So it actualyl DISCOURAGES socialization by making it so people dont want to group with strangers or noobies who they cant trust to take care of EVERY role at ANY moment. so they contradicted one of their own goals as well

Wrong, they said the raiding was for the select few. http://www.gamesradar.com/destiny-raids/ Here you can look at an article of them emphasizing that these raids are the hardest content. To quote, "Only by grouping together with a dedicated team of Guardians can you hope to overcome the challenges within, and earn some sweet, sweet loot as a reward." Its common sense provided to a community who chooses to convolute the idea and make it their own twisted idea. At its core the game WAS intended to be social OUTSIDE the concept of raids.

Where the god damn -blam!-in hell are those "sweet, sweet loot rewards"???

I have to agree here. This is a FpsMMO or atleast has subtle quanties of both. Its also a roleless rng based system, period. Every aspect about this game, is based off a number, and with each patch, that number pool gets larger and larger. The raid was fine. I understood the elements. 1: Find a way to beat the raid. 2: Use teamwork and cooperation to develop a strategy to do so. Thats fine, do able. But when you remove the base element meant to make the raid difficult but beatable, it becomes...well...unbeatable. Tell me, even if you had roles in this game, lets say you were a tank, you ALONE got teleported to fight the adds, plus take out the oracles, BUT you still had to return to the present, with the artifact. How would you pull it off? Mm...Ok, hkw bout a healer and a tank? One could heal while the other shoots right, mm, except, tanks dont deal massive damage needed to quickly eliminate the targets and get back to the portal, and since everythings random, you might not get a tank, but two healers? Or two tanks, or two squishy dps. Like he said it was obviously meant to evenly split the group, by sending the furthest attackers who were avoiding fatal damage, but also causing fatal damage, away, and when they subjected it to the rng, EVERYTHING got subjected to the rng. Including the amount of people sent through. So if the generator rolled a 1 at the time of teleportation. Guess what? Yup, 1 person is sent in, or whatever value the one is set at. They also contradicted themselves when they boasted that the only way to complete the raid was with teamwork. Uh ok so yea teamwork guys lets let one person get teleported through and try to figure out a way to kill all the oracles, and the adds, and pick up the shield to cleanse himself BEFORE and AFTER he goes through the portal, thats assuming he makes it off that starting ledge. Yea,.and we'll stand out here and watch the harpies roll out of this black fog 3 at a time, thats assuming it hasnt seen rngsus aswell. Bungie is a bunch of idiots here trying to create a game that eliminates all exploits, but instead they are ruining their own game. Some things arent as broken as they seem. But they seem to think the raid is too beatabke when a system is established, What are they gonna do, change it everytime someone figures out how to beat the system. Destiny is like a holkywood hoe, constant surgeries and injections, only to turn out used abused, busted and disgusted, then thrown away. unneeded and unwanted. prob shouldve stayed with microsoft. Lol.

Thats the exact reason all the roles are self performing in their own right. In a game with self performing classes, the players should be equally capable. As I have stated to the OP, there isnt a raid in existence that doesnt subject all players involved to all boss mechanics. New players to a static team add an element of learning. The fact that you can bring under geared players into a raid and basically sit them to the side is inexcusable in the games most up to date iteration of the raid.

I see what youre saying man, The randomness of player teleportation is not my issue. Its the quantity of said players teleported. Subjected to the factor of the rng. Its LITERALLY impossible to retrieve the relect alone. And if No one is teleported, everyone dies. That isnt being subjected to Boss level mechs, Thats being subjected to rng loot drop mechs, copy pasted and overlayed to boss level mechs. Even in self performing roles, there isnt a role possible that can complete this scenario, alone. The mech was made for Three people in, three people out. Thats the mech of the boss fight.I agree maybe who goes in should be random, that way everyone takes part and doea something, but that isnt the case. Aside from that, there are very real problems in the raid. Immortality glitch, offset enemy, disposed teleportation. all these problems corruot this raid, yet they"patch" the factor leading to the most cooperable teamwork? Take DCUO for example. There is a raid where you have to fight a demon, whos basically ultra with extra health and shields, but he is surrounded by other demons, and can also spawn his own demons, but a tank can aggro him away from, the random group of adds So that he can be properly disposed of without unneeded agitation. There are no tanks in destiny. enemies can be aggro'd, but even the small guys one shot, no matter what your defense says. So you need teamwork to correctly dispense the aggro, hence the need for three players at all times. This raid eliminates that possiblility. Which makes it impossible to complete when paired with the problems the Bungie purposefully avoided fixing, cause there is no way that a couple hundred thousand people are experiencing the same issue yet bungie hops on there and everything is gravy. -_-" But im sure you have a reason to defend this raid even still, until you find yourself fighting a minotaur alone while going blind.

Correct but DCUO also included the main support of a trinity with the added controller. But it was also was the definition of insta kill random raid mechanics. Dps was assigned to revives but what if all dps went down? There were players with secondary roles that broke the standard formula. The game was designed for add control in which there is no bearing on add control besides all players using aoe nades. You are comparing apples to oranges. I simply brought up the healer logic because I did not play free form MMOs such as guild wars. We cannot compare role strategy to a game without roles.

As long as you see that. Healer shouldnt have been brought up, because its from games that support that standard. This game does not. This game challenges the players ability to complete, not to adapt. It may seem the same but it isnt. Because you cannot adapt to a circumstance which you arent granted the tools needed to do so, but yet it boasts that the challenges were for "teams to adapt and overcome" coincidentally, you cant complete the challenge present with the tools given, because the factors have been set to challenge a certain standard of completetion in which removes the tools needed to complete, other games present to you a challenge, and then lay the tools needed in front of you so that you may figure out on your own or with a team, as to which way is best to adapt to the circumstances and complete the mission. This team seems to be only focused on how they want you to complete something in the game. They dont want you to force him off the cliff, they want you to shoot him in the weaken him by repetitive action. So they add perimeters to which the boss will not exceed. No matter the AoE. They want you to farm each planet for material, so they sppilt type and amount found within a certain time frame and upd spawn times. They want you to play the content, so they reduced the spawn rate of adds so that if it ddoes occur that you are indeed farming enemies, the rng will randomly select spawn times. They want a straight foward, boring, non exploited, this way or bust, type of game, but then want to boast it has so many elements, of which it doesnt have. Its not an MMO solely, its not an fPs Solely. But what it is with both together pales to what it would be with either alone because they are worried about which elements to place and which to remove to keep that balance, and in turn its effecting the actual game itself. Glitches, more exploits, disconnects, etc., theres no way to get around these problems in these styles of games. So they should sometimes, in some cases, just be left as is. Be honest, what was so wrong with the way the raid was? Aside from Atheon being thrown off?

There is no "raid" designed to allow pugs to enter a raid and complete it without a learning curve. Plain and simple. Raid was designed for static groups to pursue continued completion. The raid as it was prevented players from learning the raid as a whole. Players could complete atheon without ever knowing what it looks like through the portals. Thats not proper design plain and simple. Players should be subject to all mechanics and be adept enough to help others at another time/day. This hypocritical community wants to self praise about their willingness to help others but instead of helping new players learn the mechanics they would rather slap the player in the easiest role and coddle them through the raid. Had this community be truly willing to help others they would be willing to have the patience to endure the time needed for new players to learn the raid as it should be

In a game with no mechanical roles there is nothing wrong with randomizing events. Is it a cheap way to add technicality to the raid? Sure it is but in a game with NO trinity its not hard to fathom an idea that ALL players need to be able to play all events of the raid for it to be considered the most challenging event. Trinity and mechanically specific programing are a thing of the past. MMOs in this period are implementing multiple avenues of mechanics to prevent it from being the norm. Ie. Random target mechanics coupled with insta kill, arena removal, freeze debuffs for up to 30 sec, random insta kill AOEs, all which require players to stop/pause remove them from their roles for a set period of time in order to progress past the mechanic and move on with the raid. In some cases even, removed from the raid entirely until the next wipe. This is not a trinity game therefore should not be treated as such. All players should go into a raid capable of playing all areas of the endgame to be provided the best possible rewards. Plain and simple. Get your head out of specialty roles in a game that has none

YOU are the one who provided a HEALER role and situation, i was responding to that. I was not arguing for trinity roles, i was arguing for the fact that BEFORE this patch (and ignoring those people who used the cheese strat) people used planning and strategic forethought like: who is good with the relic? ok you grab relic when you go in, does anyone have oracle killing weps? ok youre going in with him, and the third person is there for back up. Now, there was no point for those oracle killing weps (at least in this point of the raid), people who suck using the relic will be forced to use it, there is no strat for who will stay outside and defend gates and kill mino's, no strat for those who are good at portals. SHOULD people know all roles? in a fantasy world yes, but we live in the real world where some people suck at certain things or havent really done the raid yet. which brings me to my next point which is this: this change discourages any kind of random grouping and teaching experiences. 90% of people now want you to know wtf youre doing and do it well or you gotta gtfo. how is that new player friendly? how does that encourage players to meet and play with new players? you never responded to that point EDIT: i did not see your eearlier reply, so my fault

In a real raid system, IF you choose to bring in new people to a raid they will be subject to ALL of the bosses mechanics and a simple mistake can result in a wipe. The fact that you use to bring new players with no experience into the raid and come out with a win is BAD RAID DESIGN

I can just as easily argue that relying on an rgn teleport mechanic that doesnt work properly half the time, and forces roles is bad design, implementing a teleport system is hardly a good way nor effetive to go about preventing new players from getting an easy win. But hey, all those bugs like dead orcales wiping and only one person or 6 people teleporting seems to be doing the trick.

Then you are arguing broken systems, not raid design. Big difference.

true, but even if the teleport worked properly, its bad design, partially because theres no meaningful reason for it to exist, groups that can complete it, are hardly going to be stopped by such a minor and easy to understand mechanic(and adapt to). And groups that wont, I dont think adding a random teleport is going to be the factor on why the cant complete it, Its better to just restore it back to its old mechanic just to avoid the bugs(which is what i keep running into, if the dead oracles dont wipe me, everyone or one person gets teleported) or its somthing equally bug related.

And thats just where the game shouldnt go. Keep the bugs but make it easier. Sorry but that shouldnt be supported. The game as a whole should focus on making the game better, not band aiding issues. But the residing issues with the games bugged mechanics do need to be fixed. In the meantime it prevents new players from piggy backing on the abilities of others and forces them to learn the game which is how the game should be. Call that elitism but in the end thats what raiding is. If players cant handle that game design then bungie needs to scrap raiding all together to coddle the community.

Yes(and your totally not strawmannig my point or anything or did you misunderstand it?) because asking for the removal of a rng teleport system that adds essentially nothing to the difficulty(its hardly anti noob, nor is it diffcult, so its hardly a barrier for a group that can complete the raid if worked as intended) nor contributes anything meaningful but bugs that wipe the raid. is asking the raid to be easier I want to raid to be harder, but i dont want meaningless mechanics added under the guise of adding diffculty when it simply is not. nor do i desire bugs that wipe me and break the raid.

Wrong it adds an element that pushes static requirements. It removes the PUG logic that this community seems to love.

Yes because telling 1 guy to carry the relic and take care of the adds, 2 to shoot the oracles suddenly adds to a static requirement, its nothing game changing or artificially difficulty increasing, being that if the members in the group couldn't do a task as simple as that, its pretty fair to say they probally wont finish the raid without cheese.

Really?? The entire argument that the community has is that they cannot assign roles and its messing everything up because some if the members on their fire team are terrible at handling the relic. Just because your team find the raid trivial does not mean the addition of this does not increase the difficulty for others. Seriously get your head out of your own ass and start thinking about how this adds a level of necessary difficulty for others. Right, because the end result of your raid group/groups is exactly how the rest of the community plays out their raids. (See i can do it too)

excuse me if i find its pretty easy to hit a few buttons and hit rb(or whatever the button is) when my guys need to be cleansed and know when or how to shoot a few floating orbs of light. Also no class should have difficultly using the relic if your 27/28+ if your at least decent enough to raid. this might be the elitist mentality, but they might not be cut out for raiding. after all, you made a post about that above. Just because my raid can do it, and its pretty decent, doesn't mean i assume everyone plays like me, nor does my raids end result make their complaints any less or more valid. Im speaking from my pov. And for future refrence, dont bother saying other raid groups think x, on a forum, its farily meaningless.