I've been here for years and OP is right. After 2 or 3 minutes it's all supers, OKH weapons, heavy, and OEM titans with dusk rock. It's basically whack a mole.

You may have been here for years but you barely play pvp.

Yeah, because the meta is stupid simple and intensely broken. I avoid crappy game modes. It doesn't take long to learn this game.

Nope, you can do well in the game with a wide range of loadouts. Your lack of experience in the crucible certainly doesn't add any more weight to his argument.

You have to use meta. You can't kill faster than OHK so if you don't have an OHK weapon you're done for. Doesn't matter much anyway because after 3-4 minutes it's supers, heavy, and spawn flipping mayhem. Don't need any skill for that part of the game. Just gotta get lucky.

Of course, but there are plenty of viable OHK weapons. Various shotguns, snipers, fusions. You have supers and a chance at heavy as does the other team, so there's a lot more skill involved than luck. That being said, supers are a bit tanky in pvp and that is being adjusted.

There is no skill involved with an OHK weapon. It's literally point and click. Because the maps are so small, flipping spawns often puts a team at a disadvantage because it'll set them too far away from a heavy spawn that spawns every few minutes and provides entirely too much ammo. No, it should be like D1. Bigger maps, 2 heavy ammo gens per game (and everyone around gets it), and better spawn logic. This game is too random as is and one unfortunate spawn flip can take a game from a winner to a loser. It happened to me today. We were doing control, had a 70-52 lead, and had A and B, didn't push C. Half of enemy team spawns at A, and now we're pincered with no escape. Full team goes down to supers and OHK weapons. Respawn at C, they take A and B, and now we're pushed back into C and losing the match. Bungie fed them a victory by giving half the team a huge advantage. They weren't even that good. Carried by 2 players with excellent scores.

Of course there's skill involved with OHK weapons. Shotguns and fusions have a low skill floor but the skill ceiling is there. Snipers have a high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling. Positioning and knowing when to push/ back off/ bait is essential for use of said weapons as well as usage of the radar. If it took no skill to use said weapons, why do skills greatly defer in the game, given that every can use them? And again, spawns are the same for everyone and while you may be at a disadvantage one time, you may just as easily find yourself having an advantage the next.

Sniper baiting is a tactic that is about 2 decades old at this point and doesn't change at all from game to game. That's like saying it takes skill to cook a steak when everybody can get a temperature probe on Amazon for 5 bucks. You get close, you pull trigger, target dies for shotties. You sit in corner, wait for target, pull trigger, and target dies. The game is too small and there are too many easy counters for anything more complex than that. Remember, after 3-4 minutes, all PvP matches delineate into super and heavy fests, so even if there is skill involved, after the 4 minute mark it's basically just spawn flip luck and whoever has more striker titans with 40 second supers that refill health and armor on every kill, making them functionally invincible with an extraordinarily low skill ceiling. That's what irritates me. With gun play, my team was up 70-52. Once the delineation started, we lost by almost 50 points. Once you remove the skill, the end of your game is basically a dice roll. That's not skill. That's gambling.

What kind of argument is this? Because it has existed for a long time, than it doesn't require skill. This is like saying dribbling in soccer is not a skill because people have always done it. Answer me this: if special weapons don't take skill, why can some players do consistently better with them than others? Do you think this is some form of perpetual luck? Bottom tree striker is broken but is being adjusted and can be countered by other supers such as blade barrage, sentinel, Nova bomb and even spectral if you can use stealth to your advantage. Or hell, you can even chose to play it if you want to be running with the best possible super. Personally, I run spectral because I love the agility and movement and don't feel disadvantaged against titans.

Spectral blades is the most broken super in destiny. A roaming super that can counter every other roaming supers and you move too quickly to be hit by counter supers. Meanwhile, stormcallers are being tanked by OEM titans with the buff and basically any sniper rifle. The argument is that snipers have worked the same way since their inception and it's not hard to learn how to use them. At this point, unless you're 12 and this is your first shooter, you already know how to use a sniper rifle. Destiny doesn't have the game mechanic prowess to introduce anything different. The perceived skill gap is little more than trying vs not trying. Someone on the edge of their seat sweating it out like a crazy person to pad their PvP stats is gonna do better than someone who is only there to get a quest done and leave as quickly as possible. The fallacy is that players play for the same motivations and that's not true. I have no intention on making my blood pressure spike and sitting inches from my TV. Some people do. That's not skill, that's just trying harder. I could bench 300lbs too if I worked at it for a few years. I do not care enough to try, doesn't mean I suck at it. Pointing a reticle at a thing and pressing a button one time to kill them is not hard enough to denote it being skill. Motivation is the culprit, not mechanics. Hell, look at the afk problem in gambit. Same thing. Those people have horrid win loss records that don't reflect their abilities at all. They simply don't care enough to try because this game sucks at player motivation.

[quote] Spectral blades is the most broken super in destiny. A roaming super that can counter every other roaming supers and you move too quickly to be hit by counter supers. [/quote] Spectral has been severely neutered in terms of duration and armor and is amongst the slowest supers even when spamming r1. You'd know if you ever played it. [quote] Meanwhile, stormcallers are being tanked by OEM titans with the buff and basically any sniper rifle. [/quote] Storm callers are tanker, faster and have a longer super than spectral. [quote] The argument is that snipers have worked the same way since their inception and it's not hard to learn how to use them. At this point, unless you're 12 and this is your first shooter, you already know how to use a sniper rifle. Destiny doesn't have the game mechanic prowess to introduce anything different. [/quote] This argument can be made for anything, even for things not related to gaming. Here is an example: The argument is that [auto rifles/scout rifles, hand cannons, side arms] have worked the same way since their inception and it's not hard to learn how to use them. At this point, unless you're 12 and this is your first shooter, you already know how to use a [auto rifles/scout rifles, hand cannons, side arms] [quote] The perceived skill gap is little more than trying vs not trying. Someone on the edge of their seat sweating it out like a crazy person to pad their PvP stats is gonna do better than someone who is only there to get a quest done and leave as quickly as possible. The fallacy is that players play for the same motivations and that's not true. [/quote] Delusions. You can try like your life depended on it and there are players that would easily win against you with non meta loadouts. If 2 players that are similarly skilled, sure, the one that is trying will most likely win, as is the case in anything. [quote] I have no intention on making my blood pressure spike and sitting inches from my TV. Some people do. That's not skill, that's just trying harder. I could bench 300lbs too if I worked at it for a few years. I do not care enough to try, doesn't mean I suck at it. Pointing a reticle at a thing and pressing a button one time to kill them is not hard enough to denote it being skill. Motivation is the culprit, not mechanics. [/quote] This is a comical argument. I don't know if you have noticed, but most people that are skilled performers at anything, have worked for years to achieve that level of skill. This is akin to going to an NBA basketball player and telling them that they are not truly skilled because anyone can shoot a ball in the basket with enough practice. Hell, I'm sure even you could be Tiger woods if you started playing golf at age 3 and dedicated every living moment to it. Or perhaps you could have been a physician if you went to med school and studied for a few thousand hours. But hey, that's not skill, anybody could do it with enough practice. [quote] Hell, look at the afk problem in gambit. Same thing. Those people have horrid win loss records that don't reflect their abilities at all. They simply don't care enough to try because this game sucks at player motivation.[/quote] What's the argument here? People on console can't afk in crucible and there is little benefit on doing it on pc. And why does crucible suck at player motivation? Intrinsic motivation is inherently present, as is the case with any competition and as far as extrinsic motivation goes, some of the best pinnacle weapons are rewarded from it.

Competition implies reward and your only reward for winning PvP is being able to come in here and lay out "get gud scrub" comments. It's an intrinsic motivation for jerks and children. As for the rest of it, you're comparing apples and oranges. Video games are pointing a reticle at a thing and then tapping a button. Basketball, by contrast, requires dozens of muscle and mental actions working in unison over the course of a much longer period of time. Plus, you can be born 7 feet tall and as long as you're not completely inept, you basically guarantee yourself a career. Pointing a reticle and pressing a button is not natively difficult to do. Those players that whoop me have $200 hair trigger controllers, sit within inches of their TV, and really try at it. If I did the same, I'd do just as well. In basketball, if there was a glove that improved your shooting by 20%, every player would wear it. Wearing that glove doesn't make them inherently more skilled. It's a tool that adds results. Meta in destiny is the same. It's a tool that adds results. Being able to one shot someone is a function of the tool, not a function of the person using the tool because the tool works the same with everyone.

5 years of experience here! Ohk is still an issue...

5 years of experience in pve perhaps. I have more crucible games this season than you do overall. OHK weapons are OHK for everyone.

Yeah unlike you I like to take breaks from easily exploitable games like destiny pvp. 5 years of pvp experience is all you have when I have experience across the whole game and still know ohk’s are still broken and those who don’t agree just want to cod with space wizards

Alrighty, one hits all need tuning punishment for playing them wrong, and the shift to keep weapons in the balance pool they were made for, shotguns need less range once more, same exact problem from D1 minus shot package. Sidearms were there for the extra distance with more damage potential. Snipers had the flinch induced to balance so you didnt try to quickscope outside of no land, which we don't have anymore, rip. Lots of things to address when we look at the past we had in PvP balances my dude.

[quote]Alrighty, one hits all need tuning punishment for playing them wrong, and the shift to keep weapons in the balance pool they were made for, shotguns need less range once more, same exact problem from D1 minus shot package. [/quote] Punishment is the same as always. You make a mistake, you are taken out by the next person with a special. [quote] Sidearms were there for the extra distance with more damage potential. [/quote] Sidearms are pretty similar to what they were in D1 at the time of the sidearm meta. The difference is that other specials are not as neutered and actually spawn with ammo. [quote] Snipers had the flinch induced to balance so you didnt try to quickscope outside of no land, which we don't have anymore, rip. [/quote] Snipers were destroyed with the excessive flinch and they are probably worse now than they were in their most nerfed state in D1. [quote] Lots of things to address when we look at the past we had in PvP balances my dude.[/quote] This is implying that the nerfed meta of sidearm, nlb is better than what we have now which I heavily disagree with. We have more weapon viability now than any meta in D1.

You seem to not have read it right. Special weapons needs fixing, you get punished regardless by mistakes, by shotguns need a range nerf, in no ordeal should someone have the range the chaperone has being a non exotic shotgun. Sniper need less flinch, and should have certain degrees of flinch for when they're shot at by said weapon type/archetype and from said distance. Maybe taken king time's of flinch, not enough to hamper a good player, just enough for certain weapon classes to outclass a sniper at the ranges they are profound in. Sidearms aren't used much at all at the moment due to the range shotguns have. If we get the balancing we had back it may get better, we are already getting the super balacing back, so i could guess we should see 2 supers a game, sometimes 3, instead of the 5 i see from one titan at times. This is without being mayhem. Anyways, any other opinions you might have, say em, but g'day. Not here to make an argument any longer, just say what facts made the game better before we reverted to the same problems from D1. Shotguns are going the same way, except without shot package this time round.

Why does that matter? In 1 year I've gotten better than many [i]cough cough[/i] have in 4+.

With a 1.19 in comp id hardly call you a valuable sorce of pvp game sense. I am a casual in destiny and have a better comp kd. If anything youre an average player like myself.