They’re going to remove engrams eventually. Government is trying to pass a federal bill to regulate gambling in games. Their new system is meant to work without engrams.

While they are most likely looking to remove them, the law has nothing to do with the in game loot boxes. The laws being looked at are to do with gambling, which only applies to actual payed loot boxes like what they had last season for purchase with silver. Since the in game ones have no form of money put in them, they are excluded from gambling laws (they basically fail the first of the three main rules for what consists of gambling, money being put in). The in game loot boxes are really no different than your rewarded gear being random for completing and activity. Neither are gambling so long as monetary value is not put in.

That made no sense, it is being viewed as a form of gambling now. Regulations will change gambling laws for gaming to fall under it, there is a price tag on engrams. Lootboxes have been banned in two countries, and the rest of Europe is continuing to further extend the ban across all of Europe. Lootboxes is a gamble, taking a chance is a gamble. Putting money into anything for a chance at something is a form of gambling. Raffle is gambling, but we don’t look at it too much because a raffle isn’t made to make money. Engrams are for profit profit profit profit, and because the chances of you getting what you want is low, you’ll spend more and thus increases the profit for Bungie as long as you don’t get what you’re gambling for. So whatever costed them say 100$ to make will be more than made up by five people gambling.

Yes but we are talking about two different things, the statement was that the reason that engrams will be removed entirely is because they will now potentially be considered gambling, but that isn't entirely true. Only the payed engrams can count as gambling because they are the only ones where monitary value is directly put in. The general engrams you earn in game do not count as gambling by any laws, even the new ones being made, because you don't put monitary value into obtaining them. The laws that are being made are only made with payed loot boxes in mind, they do not concern with in game earned loot boxes. In other words they address a certain type of loot boxes, not actually loot boxes in games in general. What I said made perfect sense.

I don’t think you really understand what you’re saying. Why would Bungie keep a gambling non profit system? Not only that, it’s a form of gambling and the people are looking to keep any kind of gambling, free or not, out of games that could influence kids at a young age. Free or not, the engram is a gambling system, and if Bungie tells you to grind every bounty for a chance at a slot machine, it will be banned. My argument for that is you would then groom the kid to log in daily for a chance, spend hours doing the content. Then, when new dlc drops, those areas cannot have new bounties with bright dust. Because now we’re seeing a slick way of forcing a persons wallet into the system, because if a kid wants to maximize their bright dust, they will need the dlc. So say in 7 days he gets enough bright dust to buy two engrams, with 25% bright dust being unused. The dlc then adds enough bounties for him to have 50% unused bright dust after the purchase, that means every other week he could buy three engrams. But, he has to buy the new dlc. That to me, is predatory, and exploitation. No gambling allowed, period. In adult rated games sure, but destiny is rated T for Teen. Teens should not be exposed to any form of gambling at all, and that’s what these people are regulating for, to keep predatory practices out of games for kids. To add, gambling in games will definitely be allowed only in rated A games. Because mature games minimum age requirement is 17, there’s no state that allows an 17 year old to gamble.

Actually I think you don't understand what you are talking about. When it comes to the law three things are required for something to be considered gambling, if something does not meet any of those three things then it is not gambling. The first is putting something of monitary value in. Which in game loot boxes immediately don't meet. Sorry but while you might personally consider them gambling, the law does not, and the laws that have been made, have made this pretty clear. The second is that what you get is over 50 percent based on luck (this percent may vary depending on the country, but it works as a general rule of thumb), and the third is that you get something of monitary value out of it. Payed loot boxes follow all three of these things, game companies have tried to argue that they don't fall into the third part, but that hasn't been working very well for them so far. But in game loot boxes do not work with the very first part of the rule and so they are automatically exempt. The issue with your line of reasoning is that it's end point is rather problematic, because what it would essentially mean is that absolutely nothing in non adult games could be based on luck. The item you get from completing an activity being random is no different than a loot box. The same thing, time, is what is put in, what you get is 100% luck based, and arguably what you can get out can be given a type of monitary value. But because time isn't technically considered something of monitary value when looking at things like gambling, these kinds of systems are perfectly allowed. As for the reasons for keeping it, well financially they really have none. In game loot boxes give players a free way to get items that Bungie would rather more people spend real money on. And if you want to claim that as the reason they will disappear, then be my guessed. I even said as much in my original post that I think they will disappear, but you can't actually blame the law as the reason why, because the in game loot boxes are exempt from those gambling laws. It's the same reason that kids are perfectly allowed to play games like poker, black jack, president, snakes and ladders, ect so long as there is no money being bet. If no monitary value is put in, then it is not gambling in the eyes of the law. If it was then you would be seeing a whole lot of border games and card games being pulled off the shelves, since a huge number of them are almost entirely luck based.

All I can say is, the companies have danced around these gambling laws. Back when these gambling laws were made, they didn’t have lootboxes. Grooming has to be regulated to some extent. At least games have to let an adult know it has some form of gambling in it. If the parent doesn’t want to look further into it, oh well, their choice really. They know what they’re doing isn’t right. Right now, I’m fine with the Eververse store. Because if I want it, I could buy it. These slot machines are meant to make the chase more intense.

Games as a whole are bad for kids these days. Bright dust farming will groom a kid log in daily. The example you made isn’t valid with lootboxes. Poker, blackjack, etc. without money it is just a card game. Something to pass time, I won’t win $500 for free, or a new car for free. I just play to play. Engrams are slot machines, you feed it for a chance to get whatever random item. It also isn’t free, I can’t just constantly roll an engram like your black jack, or poker. I have to spend a couple of hours grinding bounties for a chance at the engrams content. You have an old way of thinking. No, bright dust from bounties won’t require money, yet. But what does it teach, and replicate? Your young kid being groomed on a habit of working a job, taking the money to a slot machine, and having a go at it. One reality is more punishing than the other, both of them teach a bad habit. If I bought a game for my kid, and I learn he hops on everyday, just to get bright dust because this engram hasn’t given him what he’s been wanting, that’s a problem to me. I don’t want a game to groom my kid. You’re not seeing it from that perspective, and why gambling shouldn’t be in games for kids. So yes, I don’t doubt adult rated games will have that same formula, and I don’t care if that’s allowed. But a 17 year old isn’t allowed to gamble not just because it’s bad, but because what we do at a young age becomes habit in our later life and it’s unfair to expose kids to certain things at a young age, they’re easily influenced. If dlc has more bounties, then those bounties have to be free with the update. Which honestly sounds like the case because we will get a small amount of access to new content before a paywall hits. So again, if I break down the loop of bungies new path, it’s basically grooming. I hope it’s banned, kids don’t need games telling them to hop on everyday, they’re games.

I am not arguing against how you view it, if you view it as gambling then that is by all means your right, and I am not at all going to say you have to like it. I am just saying that if in game loot boxes disappear from destiny it won't be because of a law due to how the law defines gambling. My argument is how it is defined in a legal sense, not nesisarily if that legal definition or morally correct or not, or anything like that. If you believe the legal definition is not enough then that is up to you, and you can take it up with law makers (although good luck with that). The person's argument was that in game loot boxes will disappear because of the laws being looked at and made, and I was simply pointing out that, that simply isn't true. The whole grooming kids thing is a little bit of a difficult argument to make, because it is pretty hard to back it up with anything really solid in terms of evidence. I mean we allow kids to learn games like poker, with chips and everything. Should that be allowed? Games constantly have you spend hard earned currency on worthless things like cosmetics, it could be argued that, that is teaching a bad habit. Should that be allowed? This is the very reason the law doesn't tend to touch on this kind of stuff, at least when it comes to gambling laws, because it brings a whole ton of other moral questions in with it. It also comes along with the age old question about the government's place in dictating morals, or at least trying to. Basically it opens a whole can of worms. Again not saying you are wrong to believe what you believe, or that your beliefs are wrong either, I am just saying it doesnt really have anything to do with the reply that I had originally made. And it will likely not be touched by law makers because of the potential flood of issues that comes with it.

Yeah true, asking the government to regulate based on morality is asking for some bad things to come along. I’ll agree with that. The baseball cards is also true. Yeah, I mean, I’m still all for it being removed if it has a price tag, but I doubt they’ll keep it in the game. Not much benefit in keeping a lootbox with no price tag.

You -blam!-ing kidding? All these changes are only helping us. And yet you still whine and complain. You and most of the people on these forums wont do anything but cry about literally any changes that are made. Honestly you should just leave

You have no idea that they are actually helping us. Like I said further down, I'd be willing to bet that the amount of bright dust you get from activities is much less then you would get now from breaking down ships/shaders/sparrows/ghosts/etc from levelvup engrams. Make no mistake, when they make changes to eververse its not so that people spend less on silver, especially with Activision gone.

Don't think that's why, they are doing it so we spend more on silver. Up till now people would use silver to buy bright dust from Tess. In the fall you won't be able to buy bright dust only earn it. Silver will only get you the item u choose. Now we get bright dust in the engrams we buy or earn but not in fall. They are saying you will only be able to earn it, and it doesn't sound like it will be hard to come by. They said most activities and bounties will EARN you bright dust.

That's funny, cause I haven't paid a dime on silver and I have a buttload of dust.

I guarantee you the amount of bright dust you will be able to earn from activities will be much less that you currently generate from breaking down the shaders/sparrows/ships/armor/ghosts you get from levelling up engrams. They want you to buy more silver, any change in the eververse storefront or bright dust economy is designed with that singular purpose in mind, no matter how much they dress it up and pretend its for the good of the playerbase.