People were complaining about the lack of primaries, but ALOT of people wanted primaries to be buffed. Instead they gutted special weapons and ammo.

Yea but people always seem to disregard that primaries received buffs in nearly every weapon balancing patch throughout d1, they were simply over shadowed by whatever was being nerfed. A perfect example of this was during RoI, shotguns were nerfed and special weapon ammo was lost upon death, thats what everyone talked about. What they didnt talk about was the HUGE hand cannon buff fixing ghost bullets, [b]and[/b] that they cut the spawn time for special ammo in [b][i]Half.[/i][/b] The feedback forum community seem to have a knee jerk reaction when they see or hear the word "Nerf" for example, when hand cannons max range was "Nerfed" by 5 meters, the forum blew up. But when you really stopped an analyzed it, 5 meters wasnt anything significant as most engagements were still within comfortable range for a hand cannon.

But those buffs don’t come close to all the nerfs and I’m not even talking about all the perks that got neutered when TTK came out. If you’re ever bored, go look at the patch notes for that DLC.

I dont entirely agree, The argument that primaries "were never buffed" is just false on its face, primary weapons were consistently buffed, im pretty sure Auto rifles have received the most buffs of any weapon archtype, and while they were small (5% increases to crit damage, rage, stability, ect.) They added up and auto rifles feel very good rn. Id also say that there were plenty of buffs that should have easily over shadowed the nerf mentioned. Heres an example: pre-RoI, snipers were given a nerf causing more flinch when aiming down sights, that same patch they Buffed sidearms, the least used weapon class, auto rifles and hand cannons. It was that buff that allowed for the side arm meta. But players didnt even acknowledge the buff, instead making "Sniping is dead" "RIP destiny" "Rip PvP" ect. Posts.

I don’t think your memory of the sandbox updates in D1 is the greatest. In D1, when something was being used a lot, instead of making small tweaks, Bungie would come in hard with a nerf. Yes, after a long period of being nerfed to high hell, they would come in with small incremental buffs, but even after all those buffs, the weapons wouldn’t even hold a candle to what they once were.

I addressed this point in one of my earlier replies, but the reason we saw such outrageous nerfs was due to the outrageous feedback we provided. If the majority of the Feedback forum swears a gun has the ability to 1 shot you from across the map (which, for several weapons, they did.) Then it would obviously get nerfed with that in mind. In an analogy i used; i compared this to someone driving a car into a mechanics garage, claiming the car was a on the verge of exploding, after an inspection, the mechanic noticed a few minor flaws, dents, and minor issues, however, nothing like what the customer described. The customer demands the car is fixed, so, the mechanic complies, and to be safe, the mechanic replace anything that [i]might[/i] have been wrong in addition to the few flaws mentioned earlier. Then, a week later, the same customer comes in, and demands the car is changed back the way it was.

Yes, some of it was from player feedback, but Bungie couldn’t distinguish one weapon from the whole classroom of weapons. If you look at the guns the players would complain about, it was more often than not, exotic weapons. Suros, Thorn, TLW, Hawkmoon, Red Death to name a few. Instead of looking at what they could do to tone those weapons down, they need the whole clas.

That might have been true in early destiny, but during pre-Taken Kkng onward, Legendary weapons were more often then not the target for "nerf" posts, weapons like 1k stare, matador, clever dragon. Following that players complained about side arms, as a whole, and NLB, which, i would like to mention that prior to them becoming weapons were rated the two most [b]useless[/b] weapons in crucible. Yet, we got to the point of them deserving nerfs And yes, bungie does seem to have an issue with targeting an entire archetype of weapons for 1 weapons "over powered"-ness, but there is a reason. All weapons fit into 1 of 3 archetypes for each type of weapon. Fast firing low impact, mid fire mid impact, slow fire high impact, with very few examples of divination from this basic archetypal system. Look at a weapon like clever dragon, for example. The nerf it recieved its Rof lowered its mag size, and rage stat. Had they not hit the entire archtype, there would have been no reason to ever consider this weapon, as it wouldnt do enough damage to choose over a mid RoF pulse, and didn't fire fast enough to choose over a weapon like the Waltz, which was unaffected. Essentially, making it pointless to use, and a slap in the face to everyone who grinded for one. However, since the entire archtype was nerfed, if you still liked to use clever dragon, you could, youd simply need a different god roll. This eliminates the problem without causing any 1 gun to, essentially, be rendered absolutely useless.

I’m not disagreeing with you, there’s always people who bitch about weapons being “OP” and their only logic behind it, is that it killed them. At one point, there were people saying Mida was OP. That’s how far things were nerfed, that a gun that’s not really that exotic, was seen as OP by some people. I just know that around a certain point, a lot of players wanted buffs and not nerfs and I don’t mean an incremental increase in stability on one archetype. I mean a good stead buff across the board, but instead, Bungie just removed special ammo on death. It’s all kind of funny now, because of you look at heavy weapons in D2, they are what special weapons were in D1. It spawns every 90 seconds, you lose it on death and you can pick it up off defeated enemies.

The extremely loud, vocal minority guilty of playing PvP nearly exclusively and cry everytime they lose an encounter. They blame the weapon the other player used rather than blaming their own lack of competence during the encounter.

Ego plays a large part in that, and [b]everyone[/b] is guilty of it. Everyone has, at least once, said "wow i only lost cause he used such-and-such" or "i coulda gotten the kill if he didn't do this or that" its just what humans do.

The issue is Bungie placed far too much weight on such complaints. The constant weapon "balancing" actually turned me off from D1 shortly after HoW released. I didn't come back until shortly before RoI released and retired the game permanently 1.5 months after RoI. I don't mind an evolving meta, I just completely disagree it should change at the beck and call of sore losers. [spoiler]I was checking whether or not [i]beck and call[/i] needs to be hyphenated, which it does not, and discovered [i]beckon call[/i] is supposedly a common misspelling of the phrase. I had no idea that was a thing. It's the first time I've encountered it.[/spoiler]

Yeah, blame the players rather than the developers that can't make primaries and secondaries fill their respective roles properly to begin with, that don't listen to thousands of comments assessing their design flaws and offering corrective measures, and who come up with solutions that are consistently worse than their initial problems.

[quote]Yeah, blame the players rather than the developers that can't make primaries and secondaries fill their respective roles properlt ro begin with[/quote] Here's the issue with that, if a weapon fulfils its role to well, the community complains. If it does it poorly, the community complains, if it does it juuust right, youll still see complaints regarding it in the feedback forum. A good example of this was side arms in D1, after the Post Taken King/Pre-RoI patch, sidearms recieved a [b]huge[/b] buff so they can combat shotgun usage. If you used a side arm during the matador meta, youd know they did very well at countering hard shotgunning. But, of course, players complained "theres no way to counter shotguns, shotguns OP" then, shotguns got nerfed. Guess what followed? A side arm meta, suddenly, side arms were [b]too[/b] good, the feedback forum was flooded with "Side arms are too OP" and "Side arms need a nerf!" The issue there was, side arms didnt receive any form of buff since pre-RoI, yet, suddently, they were "OP" The point being, side arms did their job. Yet the community claimed they didnt do their job, then did their job [b]too well[/b] [quote]that don't listen to thousands of comments assessing their design flaws and offering corrective measures, and who come up with solutions that are consistently worse than their initial problems[/quote] Thats where you're wrong kiddo, bungie [b]Has[/b] listened. A little to well, lets look at some complaints that made up a majority of the feedback. "Cruicible is ability spam simulator" "Everyone relies on special weapons" "OHK special weapons are unfair" "[b]ban machine guns from PVP[/b]" ^that one was a legitimate complaint i had seen throughout D1. Now lets look at d2. [i]Ability charge times increased.[/i] that sounds familiar. [i]OHK weapons have been moved to the same slot as other OHK weapons.[/i] But that's only 2, it must just be a coincidence. [i]Machine guns removed[/i] Huh. Well it must just be 3 lucky examples, right? For further examples; lets look at Cozmos "Community Wishlist" post which he maintained throughout destiny 1's life span. Where cozmo directly communicated to the feedback community asking what they wanted, and, on that same post, there was a [b]loooong[/b] list of requests that were granted and implemented in patches.

Yeah, players complain. Opinions are like assholes- everybodies got one, and some stink more than others. Still, the players don't make the game, the developers do. There were big problems with the crucible when D1 launched. You certainly can't blame players for that. There were plenty of complaints, but there was plenty of well thought out critique that offered plenty of solutions as well. Blaming everyone for having differing opinions is ridiculous. That's just life. However blaming the developers for not being able to recognize and understand their design flaws and not being able to tell bitching from appropriate criticism is perfectly valid. Starting at the very beginning, take the primary/special problem. Lets start with primaries. Guns naturally balance themselves with the triad of damage, rate of fire, and stability. If one characteristic goes up, the others must come down. That's just physics. You can say, "this is a fantasy game, it doesn't have to be realistic," and that would be fine, absent of problems. However, there were ALWAYS problems. They'd make a gun like Doctrine of Passing that broke the rules having a blistering rate of fire, good damage, and good stability, and surprise, surprise, it was OPAF. This is an example (of many) of them just not knowing what they're doing when it comes to structuring their foundation. One of the big issues with D1 was that it did not adequately reward good situational awareness and initiative in target acquisition. In a gunfight, the person that's the first to put crosshairs on target and pulls the trigger first almost always wins. In Destiny, you could get shot and just say, "screw you, I've got Doctrine of Passing with a faster TTK," and come out victorious, a lot. Flinch is the obvious solution to put the person under fire at a disadvantage. It took two years for them to get that a sniper should not be able to hard scope people that got the drop on him, and that he shouldn't be able to line up head shots while being shot in the face. So they finally learn the rules and then, of course, break them by leaving high caliber rounds as a perk. Just like with Doctrine, when you go and break the rules, it breaks the gameplay. I have gotten the drop on someone with Uriel's Gift (which freaking HAS high caliber rounds), only to find that he has Mida Multi-tool, and one hit from that and I can't get him back into the reticle. So now we're back to square-fücking-one because they make the rules and break them, and they can't identify, recognize, or resolve a problem. On to specials. Specials SHOULD have been SPECIAL weapons for specific and special engagements, suited to a person's playstyle. Fusions for strategists that choose their range and engagements and fire where their enemy will be, not where they are, snipers for real marksmen and assasins that can line up a shot and relocate without taking suppressing fire, and shotguns for marauders that could get in close dodging and sliding, not terminators that just soak up fire to kill you with only a sliver of health left. They should have been balanced by high risk, high reward. They couldn't get it through their heads that they were SPECIAL weapons for SPECIAL engagements and as a result they ended up being used 80% of the time. They WANTED to offer players OHK's with special weapons but couldn't begin to fathom how to balance anything. Fusions were actually inately balanced with their charge time and the time it took to change weapons if your shot didn't kill. Snipers had finally gotten to a good place with the flinch penalty for suppressing fire in RoI. But then you have shotguns, and thanks to their inability to figure them out they just gave up on the entire concept of special weapons and threw them all in the power slot. First of all, they just don't understand things like shotguns outside of videogames. This wouldn't be an issue if there were not problems in the game, but there were. They had this preconceived idea of a shotgun as a OHK close range blaster and refused to deviate from it and alter its behavior to make the game work. My combat shotgun (Akdal MKA 1919 XN) fires a cone of 12 buckshot pellets spreading one inch per yard, giving it an effective range (at least 8 pellets in a mans chest) of 20 yards. The pellets don't begin to have damage fall-off for 100 yards or more. So your aim matters, especially the closer your enemy is, but it still damages outside of its effective range. Shotguns SHOULD be a close-in weapon that staggers, but takes several shots to kill unless it's an accurate shot to the face from five yards or less. If flinch increased as target range reduced and aim with a shotgun mattered more the closer you got, you would have solved the shotgun problem. Slippery players with great movement would be deadly with a shotgun, but fools that just ran at you thinking they're Jason Vorhees would get put in the dirt. Instead, you have Bungle refusing to get past their preconceived blunderbuss while also refusing to let there be a skill gap that either forces a player to accept that they should learn how to use these SPECIAL weapons well and as its unique (another word would be, SPECIAL) properties require, or accept it's not for them. All of these things are problems of their own creation thanks to their approach, having nothing to do with player feedback. Look at the current teamshot meta problem. What on earth could counter teams clumpimg up and moving in packs in the game's current state? Grenades, dummies, oh shit, they nerfed grenades into the ground. Whoopsie. They don't know what they're doing, and instead of figuring it out themselves like competent designers they're either treating every opinion as either equally valid or equally invalid. They're either listening to everyone or no one. That's not the community's fault, it's the fault of incompetent indecisive people, and this is what people not knowing what they're doing looks like. As a matter of fact, they have received thousands of well thought out critiques such as this that have included solutions such as this has. Is it the players' fault that they can't tell the difference between this and mindless bitching? Nope, it's theirs. Even if they could, is it our fault that they can't find useful input amidst a sea of toxicity? Nope, they designed the forums as an open arena with 5000 people screaming at once, with no mechanism for anything insightful to get noticed. They can't tell good advice from bad advice and haven't created anything resembling a system for them to find and access good critique and criticism if they wanted to. How often do you even see evidence of a Bungle employee even looking at a conversation such as this, much less interacting with it? Occasionally someone like Dmg will reply to ONE thread out of hundreds or one comment out of thousands in a week, but in four years I have NEVER seen a dialogue. I suppose it's our fault that it never occurred to them that they could use the forums to post their own weekly polls to get up to four freaking years of focused data on player opinions and preferences? If I build a building that no one likes that actually has systems that don't function well, I don't get to say, "well everyone I talked to had different ideas and opinions, it's so hard to figure out what to do." i have to own that I couldn't figure out right from wrong, made bad decisions, and made a piece of shit. Even if 1000 people commisioned me to build that building under the stipulation that I interview every one of them for their input, it's still my fault if I fail to make something acceptable. And lets be clear, 80-90% of the changes that were implemented in D2 had nothing to do with pleasing the consumers anyway. Balancing the game was hard so they did everything they could to make their jobs easier, like simplifying skill trees and eliminating random rolls. You're giving them WAY to much credit by implying they were so concerned with pleasing the player base that they got confused by all of the conflicting opinions and their poor, sweet souls got lost in the weeds. These guys don't know what they're doing, they get stuck on preconceived ideas, they make bad choices, they don't have the skill set to identify and resolve their root problems, they can't tell good advice from bitching, they can't tell destructive criticism from constructive critique, and even if the latter by some miracle reached them, they're too arrogant to accept that a player might be right and they're wrong, and might hand them for free the solutions that they're paid to have elude them.

[quote]First of all, they just don't understand things like shotguns outside of videogames. This wouldn't be an issue if there were not problems in the game, but there were. They had this preconceived idea of a shotgun as a OHK close range blaster and refused to deviate from it and alter its behavior to make the game work. My combat shotgun (Akdal MKA 1919 XN) fires a cone of 12 buckshot pellets spreading one inch per yard, giving it an effective range (at least 8 pellets in a mans chest) of 20 yards. The pellets don't begin to have damage fall-off for 100 yards or more.[/quote] This is a matter of Game Mechanics Over Realism. If they allowed shotguns the range they have in the real world, mixed with the perks of Destiny, no one would use anything else. [quote]Slippery players with great movement would be deadly with a shotgun, but fools that just ran at you thinking they're Jason Vorhees would get put in the dirt. Instead, you have Bungle refusing to get past their preconceived blunderbuss while also refusing to let there be a skill gap that either forces a player to accept that they should learn how to use these SPECIAL weapons well and as its unique (another word would be, SPECIAL) properties require, or accept it's not for them[/quote] Again, its a matter of Game Mechanics Vs. Realism, realistically, of you shot a Jericho rocket anywhere within a mile of you, you and anyone beside you would be dead, if not from impact or explosion, then by shrapnal, yet you can use a Ghorn a few feet from your target and survive. Also, going back to my previous statement its not a matter of "they dont know how to use a special weapon" rather its "id rather change the conditions to where i can guarantee a OHK with my shotgun, rather then get into a slower primary engagement." [quote]All of these things are problems of their own creation thanks to their approach, having nothing to do with player feedback.  Look at the current teamshot meta problem.  What on earth could counter teams clumpimg up and moving in packs in the game's current state?  Grenades, dummies, oh shit, they nerfed grenades into the ground.  Whoopsie.[/quote]  Why do you suppose they nerfed grenades into the ground? Perhaps because D1 was claimed by the community for much of its 3 years as, and i quote, "Ability spam simulator". And why do players team shot? Because its the most effective way to get kills while minimizing the odds of losing. Its not a matter of poor design, its a matter of players seeking the most effective ways to win. Thats what they do, in any competitive game. Hence why "Metas" exsist. [quote]They don't know what they're doing, and instead of figuring it out themselves like competent designers they're either treating every opinion as either equally valid or equally invalid.  They're either listening to everyone or no one.  That's not the community's fault, it's the fault of incompetent indecisive people, and this is what people not knowing what they're doing looks like.[/quote] No this is what a group of developers giving their fan base what they want, constantly pandering to them looks like. The reason its "all or nothing" is due to the nature of the community, either everyone is included, which leads to a bad direction for the game, or they ignore the community which, in my opinion, would see a healthier game. Destiny isnt making progress forward, its constantly going back to fix things that werent broken. [quote]they have received thousands of well thought out critiques such as this that have included solutions such as this.  Is it the players' fault that they can't tell the difference between this and mindless bitching?  Nope, it's theirs.  Even if they could, is it our fault that they can't find useful input amidst a sea of toxicity?  Nope, they designed the forums as an open arena with 5000 people screaming at once, with no mechanism for anything insightful to get noticed. [/quote] Firstly, the forum is a vocal [b]minoroty[/b] it just happens to be the loudest, its population is a few hundred. And id hardly say theyve received thousands of "thoughtful feedback" in my experience its usually a ratio of 1 good, for every 8 to 10 bad posts. Also they [b]did[/b] make a mechanism for insightful posts to get noticed... the "like" system, where if you see a post you believe should be seen, you like it, hence why we have "trending" posts, the issue is that posts pandering to Irate players get more attention then thoughtful ones.  [quote]How often do you even see evidence of a Bungle employee even looking at a conversation such as this, much less interacting with it?[/quote]  Previously? Fairly often, i still occasionally see [Moderator replied] notices on some feedback, in which Cozmo gives his insight and often assures the poster his/her feedback has been taken into account, also, again, the Cozmo "Community wishlist" [quote] I suppose it's our fault that it never occurred to them that they could use the forums to post their own weekly polls to get up to four freaking years of focused data on player opinions and preferences?[/quote] Have you considered that the feedback community is, again, a vocal [b]Minority[/b] it is a fraction of the entire community speaking on the behalf of a much larger group. Most players dont bother with the forum and simply enjoy the game, the ones who frequent the forums are the ones who have the most to reason to, as theyre often making multiple posts covering a single topic (often nerfs) [quote]If I build a building that no one likes that actually has systems that don't function well, I don't get to say, "well everyone I talked to had different ideas and opinions, it's so hard to figure out what to do."  i have to own that I couldn't figure out right from wrong, made bad decisions, and made a piece of shit.  Even if 1000 people commisioned me to build that building under the stipulation that I interview every one of them for their input, it's still my fault if I fail to make something acceptable. [/quote] Lets look at it this way, using your example, lets say 900 of those people didn't have any strong opinion, however, 100 of them demands that all the stair cases be replaced with slides and if you didnt, theyd fire you. You make the building per-request, but, oh-no, the other 900 people are now upset that there arent stairs. Is it still your fault they didnt voice their opinions when they had a chance? Or is it the fault of the 100 people who voiced their opinions? [quote]And lets be clear, 80-90% of the changes that were implemented in D2 had nothing to do with pleasing the consumers anyway.  Balancing the game was hard so they did everything they could to make their jobs easier, like simplifying skill trees and eliminating random rolls.  You're giving them WAY to much credit by implying they were so concerned with pleasing the player base that they got confused by all of the conflicting opinions and their poor, sweet souls got lost in the weeds.  [/quote] Sorta contradict yourself here because if they didnt know what they were doing, yet still trying to make the game work, then they [b]would[/b] be "poor sweet souls got lost in the weeds" [quote]These guys don't know what they're doing, they get stuck on preconceived ideas, they make bad choices, they don't have the skill set to identify and resolve their root problems, they can't tell good advice from bitching, they can't tell destructive criticism from constructive critique, and even if the latter by some miracle reached them, they're too arrogant to accept that a player might be right and they're wrong, and might hand them for free the solutions that they're paid to have elude them. [/quote] Again, id like to point out that there was a [b][u]Community Wishlist[/u][/b] thread for most of Destiny 1 which contained suggestions, by the feedback forum and was directly managed by Cozmo, a bungie employee. And, on that same thread, there was a list of changes that were suggested by the community and implemented by bungie. So [b]clearly[/b] they do, infact, take player feedback into account. Im not saying Bungie is completely blameless, trust me, theyve made plenty of errors. But you cant point the blame soley on bungie for the state the game is in right now, to do so would be like blaming the government whoever was elected president, even though they got 80% of the votes.

OMFG I commend you for not only reading through that wall of text but breaking the main points down into readable quotes. This kid is completely clueless about everything from feedback to game development to what Bungie actually listened to. All he is doing is following the canned "Bungie socks" rhetoric here. He doesn't have a unique thought of his own. Well schooled.

Oh, the ones that call people "kid" are always the kids themselves. I don't ever see adults complaing of a "wall of text" when they are met with what amounts to one page in a book. Kids raised by their iphone do. "Breaking it down into readable quotes." Jesus you kids are pathetic. Re-read what you wrote and consider that you had the gall to call me sanctimonious, when I entered a dialogue, and what you bring to the conversation is a rude, dismissive, insulting troll shit-post devoid of a single unique thought yourself.

To be fair, the "wall of text" comment is more in regards to formatting, even on the pages of a book, paragraphs are formatted as to make the content easier to read and look more appealing to a reader. Which is why, when i responded to your posts, i broke them up into readable sections, so you, and other people reading through, can follow what im addressing in each point. But yes, i dont appreciate much being called a child either. this is a forum, again, name calling is the equivalent of going into a conversation then plugging your ears going "La-La-La" as the other person tries to express their opinion. Its to easy to simply point at someone with a different opinion and dismiss everything they say under the guise of ""you're just a fanboy" or ""you're just a noob" or ""you're just a kid" which i see much to often on this forum as a way to not think. In my opinion, if you have to resort to calling the other person names, or saying ""your'e just a so-and-so" then it means you're argument wasn't strong enough to support itself in the first place, hence, shouldn't be brought into the discussion.

Way to assume. Another great quality I see. I'm 49 with wife and 2 kids. I'm just more socially aware than most "adults". 2 family member who served and one who is currently in corrections. Your service is honorable and so is your knowledge of firearms. I would never dispute that. However You still come off very sanctimonious. Neither if those things help you make a good game or help you form opinions on what game mechanics should be. As the other guy says. Realism has its place, and I think this game has always done a decent job with ballistics for example, but in a game with space magic abilities you can't use that to justify changes. I also stand by my point thsts your tirade against Bungie is cut-and-paste from every other complainer in here. It's not original and it's mostly misinformation. Have a great night.

So it's okay for you to assume I'm a kid but not for me to assume you're a kid. Curious. You see why there's not much point conversing with someone like you? You're hypocrisy is staggering. You assumed I was a child because you disagreed with my statements. I assumed you were a child because your response honestly sounded like a child. That's not being "socially aware." That's being childish. Call it sanctimonious if you want. Most people's response is to deride what they don't want to hear. It tends to inhibit growth. That might explain you pushing 50 but sound like you're 12.