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4/8/2023 10:55:03 PM
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Hmm, let’s see. I think the BH is a great example of retcons messing with present perspectives, which I blame Bungie for, not us.
Savathun and WQ, most of it was planned. Even our interference, all the way up to the stealing of the Traveler. That was her ultimate end goal and it involved manipulating us but her plan didn’t involved losing to us at the end.
At best, she had a contingency plan for if she came back after losing there. A sort of ‘you’ve found out the truth and now we can work together’ sort of deal.
Vex and the Garden, the Darkness didn’t bring life to it. The Garden is the cradle of creation, the Vex brought order to it, tended it like a Gardner.
The Minotaurs were likely already alive but sleeping, like much of the Vex were when we went there. We’ve seen numerous times from base D1 to present.
They were waiting for the Heart to gain more power so they could merge with it. That’s what D1 Elsie said had happened in her timeline, the Bex got empowered and gained immense power then ran roughshod over the Guardians.
It was a major power up. Back then, it was a Darkness artifact that they found and worshipped to gain power, this behavior was explained later in the BoS.
Now it’s retconned into a dimensional gateway of a sorts.
But see, the part of the D1 BH linked it to the Traveler because it was tied to its power and health. How could a copy of something that still exists do that? Cause it would be overriding the 100% operational original and that makes no sense.
Nor does the Vex making a immensely powerful Darkness artifact, as they can’t harness power like that.
Bungie told us that D1 was like a comic book zero edition, sets the stage but can and will be retconned as future editions iron out details.
So for the BH, I would take it at D2s face value. A gateway that could be harnessed to some degree normally (the cloudark) but whose ultimate secret required Light to open (the portal).
Calus was a setup. The Witness has been spying on us, and likely every single Guardian, through our Ghosts. It knew we would try to stop him.
It was a win win either way. We fail to stop calus and he succeeds, we stop calus and bring our Ghost in to be used instead.
It was a deception.
The retcons are what’s making your tie in so difficult. If you cut those out, it flows better.
The main question is where does the portal lead.
Far as we know the Black Garden should be the real one. So what other place are the gods hiding in?
English
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After reading up a bit, I’ve found out that apparently the conceptual kind was responsible for the creation of the black heart, as was found in the indeterministic chaos quest. But my question is: if the vex were able to make a makeshift veil that looks so similar to the darkness, how come they can’t understand the darkness. If this mind made darkness, why can’t it understand it? That’s where my understanding goes wrong. Also, the similarities between the metaphorical and the real garden may be extremely similar, but I believe that the black garden just transcended to how we can view it. It isn’t the actual garden, but a lower version of the actual garden that we can understand.
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[quote]After reading up a bit, I’ve found out that apparently the conceptual kind was responsible for the creation of the black heart, as was found in the indeterministic chaos quest. But my question is: if the vex were able to make a makeshift veil that looks so similar to the darkness, how come they can’t understand the darkness. If this mind made darkness, why can’t it understand it? That’s where my understanding goes wrong. Also, the similarities between the metaphorical and the real garden may be extremely similar, but I believe that the black garden just transcended to how we can view it. It isn’t the actual garden, but a lower version of the actual garden that we can understand.[/quote] That’s a prime example of retcons causing problems. The Vex making a powerful Darkness artifact when they don’t even understand it. Bungie is just glossing over the retcons they can’t mesh well. It could be the Black Garden is a remake and the portal the Witnes made leads to the real one. Too many uncertainties to be sure.
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[quote][quote]After reading up a bit, I’ve found out that apparently the conceptual kind was responsible for the creation of the black heart, as was found in the indeterministic chaos quest. But my question is: if the vex were able to make a makeshift veil that looks so similar to the darkness, how come they can’t understand the darkness. If this mind made darkness, why can’t it understand it? That’s where my understanding goes wrong. Also, the similarities between the metaphorical and the real garden may be extremely similar, but I believe that the black garden just transcended to how we can view it. It isn’t the actual garden, but a lower version of the actual garden that we can understand.[/quote] That’s a prime example of retcons causing problems. The Vex making a powerful Darkness artifact when they don’t even understand it. Bungie is just glossing over the retcons they can’t mesh well. It could be the Black Garden is a remake and the portal the Witnes made leads to the real one. Too many uncertainties to be sure.[/quote] Its not a retcon it makes sense, if the Black Heart was a replicant Veil then it’s inherently gonna be linked to the traveler Elsis literally says that the Traveler wont start healing until the heart is destroyed and it makes sense. The Witness wouldn’t need a replicant till after the collapse so it was made post collapse. The Black Garden isn’t a remake, another example of your leaps in logic why would it be remade? You dont even question your poor logic
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작성자: MC 077 Lasombra 4/9/2023 10:48:12 PMHow could an incomplete copy dictate the Traveler when the original is still functioning? Nor does it make sense that the Vex can make Uber powerful paracausal artifacts that then then use to give themselves power. And if it needed it, why did it settle for a crap copy for centuries? And not use it. I said it was a possibility, not that it was true. So much for Logic. You don’t even understand English and your own counters are utter crap. Just another troll post. I must of really burst your bubble. So sad. Yet so funny. 🤣
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[quote]How could an incomplete copy dictate the Traveler when the original is still functioning? Nor does it make sense that the Vex can make Uber powerful paracausal artifacts that then then use to give themselves power. And if it needed it, why did it settle for a crap copy for centuries? And not use it. I said it was a possibility, not that it was true. So much for Logic. You don’t even understand English and your own counters are utter crap. Just another troll post. I must of really burst your bubble. So sad. Yet so funny. 🤣[/quote] It wasn’t dictating anything, it was more of a thorn in its side because it was a failed replicant. Makes perfect sense just you leap to massive judgments like assuming it wouldn’t have a effect because the original is still functional. Makes no sense why it wouldn’t have a effect it was created to function the same so it would definitely link to the traveler. And the Sol Divisive (they are of the Vex species but are not part of the Vex Network they serve the witness and do not care of the goals of the main Vex network) had assistance from the witness in making it obviously since the witness had the Veil during the collapse. It would have definitely known how it works since its definitely more knowledgeable than us on it. They didn’t use it to power anything or anyone they just worshipped it, it was something the witness told them to make and they used it as a idol. It never powered anything. The reason the witness never used it is if you put 2 and 2 together it didn’t work. If it worked it would have used it. The witness obviously tried making a replicant when the first was lost and it needed the Veil to get in so it ordered the Sol Divisive to create a replicant the best they could so it could use it. My counter points were good enough to literally make you ask questions. You have a huge ego and cant stand to be wrong
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The Sol divisive has the witness help, says you. Not the lore. Elsie in D1 said in her timeline they merged with it and became Uber powerful and overran the Guardians. So you’re 100% wrong. “Put 2 and 2 together” aka make something up. Says the dude who makes stuff up to “prove” me wrong. Asking you questions to force you to give answers that reveal you make stuff up or to catch you in a contradiction. Keep it up, let everyone see how bent you are.
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[quote]The Sol divisive has the witness help, says you. Not the lore. Elsie in D1 said in her timeline they merged with it and became Uber powerful and overran the Guardians. So you’re 100% wrong. “Put 2 and 2 together” aka make something up. Says the dude who makes stuff up to “prove” me wrong. Asking you questions to force you to give answers that reveal you make stuff up or to catch you in a contradiction. Keep it up, let everyone see how bent you are.[/quote] The Sol Divisive worship the witness thats made clear in Spire of the Watcher Also which lore book has Elsie saying that the Sol Divisive merge with the black heart
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[quote]So [i]nothing[/i]. Not even a remote implication. Not a single line of text that could even remotely suggest it. And you say I make stuff up lol Congratulations, you played yourself.[/quote] So you couldn’t find the lore book (more likely you made it up) and you talk about implications for some reason a way to divert the topic. You dont even know what the Sol Divisive is lmao
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작성자: Gilgamesh 4/10/2023 3:12:06 AM[quote]Did you prove your claim? No. Keep making stuff up.[/quote] My claim that the Sol Divisive serve the witness? You literally never asked if you want https://youtu.be/IyMPjhDRlEg Where Osiris literally says the Sol Divisive serve the witness XD
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[quote]After reading up a bit, I’ve found out that apparently the conceptual kind was responsible for the creation of the black heart, as was found in the indeterministic chaos quest. But my question is: if the vex were able to make a makeshift veil that looks so similar to the darkness, how come they can’t understand the darkness. If this mind made darkness, why can’t it understand it? That’s where my understanding goes wrong. Also, the similarities between the metaphorical and the real garden may be extremely similar, but I believe that the black garden just transcended to how we can view it. It isn’t the actual garden, but a lower version of the actual garden that we can understand.[/quote] Thats why the veil more then likely came out incorrectly As well the Sol Divisive serve directly under the witness, they are a special sect of Vex disconnected from all other. They got the blueprint from the Witness as we need to keep in mind Nezerec had the Veil on his ship during the collapse. Of course this is all not 100% confirmed but is what is assumed by most at the time (other than the sol divisive serving the witness) The Vex were able to follow a blueprint, we are unsure who made the Blueprint if could have been the witness. But for sure if they have a blueprint they don’t necessarily have to understand it to build it. The Black Garden is THE garden that the Gardener and Winnower fought in, what we dont know is what happened to them after the Universe was created
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Interesting. Do you think you could tell me the lore book revealing that the black garden was the OG garden of the winnower and gardener? Or is that hidden in the D1 grimoire cards? As for the BH, its primary purpose was supposed to be the veil. If the vex found it, and gained power from it, then why was it left there? Especially in a place that the traveler would be weakened by. Then we have the vex leaking into the garden. How did they get in there? I wonder if they found a door way to the garden. After all, they are the masters of causality.
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[quote]Interesting. Do you think you could tell me the lore book revealing that the black garden was the OG garden of the winnower and gardener? Or is that hidden in the D1 grimoire cards? As for the BH, its primary purpose was supposed to be the veil. If the vex found it, and gained power from it, then why was it left there? Especially in a place that the traveler would be weakened by. Then we have the vex leaking into the garden. How did they get in there? I wonder if they found a door way to the garden. After all, they are the masters of causality.[/quote] Nothing specific. We know it existed before they came to it, so they are excluded from the list of potential creators. All of its descriptions from base D1 to present make it out to be a place of inherent power. Even in D2, we see it in the Awoken barred from it and when Uldren and his buddy go in, it plays with their mind or something. So the list of potential creators right now stands at three. Natural, Winnower or Witness. They may go with a Black Garden and a Light Garden or the natural Garden and then a Witness or Winnower made Black Garden. The OG purpose is likely different than the current Veil linked purpose. Honestly when new stuff makes the old stuff look broken, I downgrade it until something comes along to prop it back up. This is what I mean about retcons muddying the waters. We aren’t sure how much to keep or discard. I always give more weight to the new.
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[quote][quote]Interesting. Do you think you could tell me the lore book revealing that the black garden was the OG garden of the winnower and gardener? Or is that hidden in the D1 grimoire cards? As for the BH, its primary purpose was supposed to be the veil. If the vex found it, and gained power from it, then why was it left there? Especially in a place that the traveler would be weakened by. Then we have the vex leaking into the garden. How did they get in there? I wonder if they found a door way to the garden. After all, they are the masters of causality.[/quote] Nothing specific. We know it existed before they came to it, so they are excluded from the list of potential creators. All of its descriptions from base D1 to present make it out to be a place of inherent power. Even in D2, we see it in the Awoken barred from it and when Uldren and his buddy go in, it plays with their mind or something. So the list of potential creators right now stands at three. Natural, Winnower or Witness. They may go with a Black Garden and a Light Garden or the natural Garden and then a Witness or Winnower made Black Garden. The OG purpose is likely different than the current Veil linked purpose. Honestly when new stuff makes the old stuff look broken, I downgrade it until something comes along to prop it back up. This is what I mean about retcons muddying the waters. We aren’t sure how much to keep or discard. I always give more weight to the new.[/quote] Awoken were never barred Never had hallucinations Uldren had been there dozens of times The Black Garden is the place the “flower game” took place as the Vex witnessed the flower game happen and when the universe was created by Light and Dark fighting they leaked out. Its called the “Black” Garden by Humans/Awoken/Exo and all races because we know the Black Heart was there and thats all they know about it. You dont see things from how characters ingame would with their limited understanding The place the witness went was more then likely inside the Traveler to another plane of existence as we know there is multiple But atleast you admit you make up alot of your stuff here
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Kinda like you when you claim the dark and Light always existed? “In all their transformations, they retained that kernel of ultimate self-sufficiency that had made them victors in the flower game. [b][i]But they are not incontrovertibly destined to rule this cosmos. They were made before Light and Darkness, but the rules are different now, and even this pattern must adapt. [/i][/b] They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man Oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.” Haha. So let’s see, I think that’s three claims of yours popped by one quote. You can troll me all you want. I, unlike you, don’t get bent out of shape by it. How many ideas of yours did I knock down before you blew a gasket? Cause you can add three more to the list now. You should really stop. At this rate, you’ll hit 100% failure rate.
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[quote]Kinda like you when you claim the dark and Light always existed? “In all their transformations, they retained that kernel of ultimate self-sufficiency that had made them victors in the flower game. [b][i]But they are not incontrovertibly destined to rule this cosmos. They were made before Light and Darkness, but the rules are different now, and even this pattern must adapt. [/i][/b] They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man Oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.” Haha. So let’s see, I think that’s three claims of yours popped by one quote. You can troll me all you want. I, unlike you, don’t get bent out of shape by it. How many ideas of yours did I knock down before you blew a gasket? Cause you can add three more to the list now. You should really stop. At this rate, you’ll hit 100% failure rate.[/quote] Once again you show “i dont need to state my sources” Because you know i can easily dismantle your argument
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Considering how well you know Unveiling, I’m surprised I have to tell you when I’m quoting from it. Unveiling, Patternfall. Dismantle what? All you say is what I quote isn’t true and what little quote is true. That’s all you argue.
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작성자: Gilgamesh 4/9/2023 11:22:04 PM[quote]Considering how well you know Unveiling, I’m surprised I have to tell you when I’m quoting from it. Unveiling, Patternfall. Dismantle what? All you say is what I quote isn’t true and what little quote is true. That’s all you argue.[/quote] Patternfall describes how the Vex were formed and got into the universe as the pattern in the Garden fell apart when Light and Dark fought. No where does it say anything created Light or Darkness, they are still primordial forces existing prior to the universe. You try to make these non-points against me because you assume its all you do. You leave out the part that says it’s discussing the Vex And the Witness is right Light and Dark hadn’t existed it was the Gardner and Winnower once the universe was made Light and Darkness really became elements. Essentially new names for these primordial forces
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작성자: MC 077 Lasombra 4/10/2023 12:25:02 AMYou mean besides the Gardner saying she wanted to make a new rule, the Winnower objecting and when she did it the Winnower says they became laws and could influence the game. Yeah. Nothing says the powers didn’t exist prior except the freaking gods who made them. And their talk about making the new law and this quote from patternfall shows that prior to that discussion the dark and Light didn’t exist. You just don’t like how I ruin your ideas. Bottom line, you’re either so ignorant of the lore you believe the crap your spew or you’re a bent out of shape troll. Keep trying.
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[quote]You mean besides the Gardner saying she wanted to make a new rule, the Winnower objecting and when she did it the Winnower says they became laws and could influence the game. Yeah. Nothing says the powers didn’t exist prior except the freaking gods who made them. And their talk about making the new law and this quote from patternfall shows that prior to that discussion the dark and Light didn’t exist. You just don’t like how I ruin your ideas. Bottom line, you’re either so ignorant of the lore you believe the crap your spew or you’re a bent out of shape troll. Keep trying.[/quote] ^ This message is incoherent rambling What is your overall point you are making, you claim now that gods made the Gardener and Winnower? Also the rule the Gardner wanted added was them directly interfering with the Flower game while the Winnower objected as the games shape would change but in the end still reach its final shape it had done before.
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The gods are the Gardner and Winnower. The discussion of the new law and the quote saying the vex predate the two powers proves my claim. You’re just twisting my words, as usual. No, the Winnower objected but the Gardner did it anyway and that led to the first knife and their fight. Resulting in the creation of the cosmos. Which is why the quote says the have to adapt to it. Weird how you’re so knowledgeable but you can can’t follow a simple sequence of events detailed in a book you cite. It’s almost as if you never read it.
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[quote]The gods are the Gardner and Winnower. The discussion of the new law and the quote saying the vex predate the two powers proves my claim. You’re just twisting my words, as usual. No, the Winnower objected but the Gardner did it anyway and that led to the first knife and their fight. Resulting in the creation of the cosmos. Which is why the quote says the have to adapt to it. Weird how you’re so knowledgeable but you can can’t follow a simple sequence of events detailed in a book you cite. It’s almost as if you never read it.[/quote] Im not twisting anything you are literally changing what you are saying off what i said. Your stance has shifted completely The Gardner and Winnower are Light and Dark. The concepts of Light and Dark came into existence when these two fought. You seem to not get that, they are not gods they are primordial forces that are sentient
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Where did I said differently? I’ve never doubted Unveiling. You have though. Your position is the one that has changed. As I provide evidence whereas you have none. Mr. the witness helped the vex make the bh and your proof is that they worshipped the witness. That’s the kinda shoe string thinking you’re bringing to the table. It’s a label that describes them. Creators of the cosmos are gods. If you want to be technical and quote the lore they are ontological principles. As inevitable as the primes. Haha, how petty. More semantics games. But what else to expect someone who only gets their info from yt.
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[quote]Where did I said differently? I’ve never doubted Unveiling. You have though. Your position is the one that has changed. As I provide evidence whereas you have none. Mr. the witness helped the vex make the bh and your proof is that they worshipped the witness. That’s the kinda shoe string thinking you’re bringing to the table. It’s a label that describes them. Creators of the cosmos are gods. If you want to be technical and quote the lore they are ontological principles. As inevitable as the primes. Haha, how petty. More semantics games. But what else to expect someone who only gets their info from yt.[/quote] I doubted your interpretation which has you believing the Winnower is telling us directly all this (when its the witness but you believe the two are the same) Primordial forces are not gods, literally every mythology has gods made from primordial Also i love how you use buzzwords without looking up their definitions show how little you really know XD
