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작성자: Error Code: Skill Issue
12/20/2021 5:01:02 PM
25
Bungie doesn’t have an issue with you farming GM’s, but all the below-average players were only farming the easiest GM’s.
In fact, they’re still trying to. You still see bad players begging for Lake of Shadows in LFG, because those easy strikes are typically the only ones they can actually complete.
If Bungie wants to bring the easy GM’s in line with the other strikes, the Lake of Shadows boss needs an immune phase at 50% health. Damage can resume once all other enemies have been defeated.
English
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작성자: TheArtist 12/20/2021 7:49:56 PMHow dare the customers actually enjoy playing the game.....monsters. Reality check. Massive Entertainment took that same "Get Good or Go Home" attitude with their end-game in the First Year of The Division back in 2016. The only incursion in the game was brutally difficult. Any team wipe resulted in failure and having to start the encounter all over again. So must runs ended in failure....and players getting NOTHING for their time and effort. ..and if you didn't want to deal with the incursion....your only option was to go into the Dark Zone and engage in some of the nastiest open world PvEvP in the gaming world at the time. Only EVE Online was nastier. [i] (I once stopped to help a guy who was down in the DZ, when I could have just killed him and robbed him of his stuff. How did he show is gratitude? By blowing my brains out seconds later when I stopped to check my map.) [/i] Did players "Get Good"? No. They went home, and stopped playing the game. The PVP players shamelessly exploited and cheesed teh Incursion to break the game and get the best gear....then took it into the DZ and used it to grief and stall the progress of PVE players and those who tried to play the game legtimately. Things got so bad in the DZ that people would gank PVE players trying to level up or farm loot....and wouldn't even bother to stop and take their loot. . Or they'd just kill you for the hell of it...when you didn't even have any loot...but each death would cost you XP and resources. So people just got tired of it....and they said F-it and stopped playing. The game lost 98% of its player base, before the Devs finally came to their senses...and realized that they were either going to have to show more respect for their players....or they were going to wind up with a dead game. Bungie faced the same issue with Trials....and their actions are suggestign that they are facing a similar issue with GMNFs behind the scenes. The problem is the same one that Massive ran into. End game content that was WAY out of step with the experience that the rest of the game gives (people called The Division's vanilla end game a "Bait and Switch" it was so out of step). If this were a Dark Souls game...and every aspect of the game is punishing. Then go for it. Tell people to Get Good. But when the game is a power-fantasy game...and all of sudden this super-punishing game mode appears out of nowhere? No, telling people to "Get Good" isn't going to work. They are either not going to play it.... ...or they will find a way to BREAK IT and make it consistent with the rest of the game.
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If some people can solo every GM, I think most people can 3 man one. People are LAZY, GMs are far from impossible, just practice a little, get better, and get it done. Anyone who can’t do a GM is just lazy and has zero perseverance.
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작성자: TheArtist 12/21/2021 3:51:29 PMAnd? [b][i]Who are you to tell people what they should do with their time and money...and where they should look for challenge in life?[/i][/b] I don't play video games to "test myself". That part of my life is in the rear view mirror (I know who I am and what I can do), and I play golf and write music to "challenge" myself. I also have a job that "challenges" me in some pretty intense ways. Video games are my REFUGE from that. The place where I can sit down. Turn my brain off, and let by mind and body relax. So I can go back to the challenging parts of my life refreshed and renewed. Who are you to tell me that I need to order my life in a different way? People have a right to like what they like, and to do what they enjoy as long as it doesn't hurt themselves or anyone else. Bungie isn't running into problems because players are "lazy". They are running into problems because they are trying to FORCE an experience onto the player base that the player base DOESN"T WANT....and their actions make it clear that htey don't want it. But Bungie's pride and stubbornness won't allow them to hear that negative feedback. Just like many of you are unwilling to hear that truth, without lashing out at the people who are expressing that truth about games like this. Which is why I raised the analogy about the chef sending me liver and onions when I want steak. I don't have an "unrefined palette' because I dont' like liver. I'm confronted with a presumptuous chef who simply wont give me what I ordered. Creatign content that relies on making the player feel WEAK...and NEVER allowing them to progress beyond that weakness flies in the face of why the vast majority of people play games like this. ...and every game like this that loses sight of that fact, ends up struggling. Predictably. Because the psychology that define the genre and the player expectations aren't going to change simply because a developer thinks "it would be cool" if it did.
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So? Tell bank robbers and thieves to "get a job"...and see how far that gets you..... Bungie is trying to "fight the problem" of player psychology and their unwillingness to respect it. So now they are facing the consequences. Especially since they stubbornly refuse to learn from making these same mistakes again and again.
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Low skilled players need to get better somehow, and that’s going to take practice to build up those skills. Low skilled players don’t want to do that. They want the developer to make the game revolve around their low skill level.
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작성자: TheArtist 12/20/2021 8:11:26 PM[quote]Low skilled players need to get better somehow, and that’s going to take practice to build up those skills[/quote] No they dont. If your tag is to be believed, then you and I are in the same ballpark where age is concerned. Game devs could get away with a lot of bad design choices and crappy design choices when we were young because there were far fewer games....and even fewer entertainment choices. We were a captive audience....and the attitude is "Where are you going to go if you dont' like it??" But today? We are dealing with a saturated game market...and an even more saturated entertainment market. I spent most of last night sitting down and watching half of the second season of The Witcher on Netflix. There is SO much out there competiing for people's time, money, and attention...that if you don't treat player's with respect...and reward them investing their time in your game? They won't "Get Good'...by biting their lip and suffering through an unpleasant experience. They will GET GONE. They will give you and your game the One Finger Salute...and they will go do something else. They will play a game that shows more respect for their time and effort.... ...or go do somethng else entirely. Watch TV. Watch YouTube. Twitch. TikTok...whatever. So at the end of the day...if youre a Triple A dev...Dead Right is just as dead as Dead Wrong. Doesn't matter how "right" you are, if no one is playing your game. ...and no one HAS to play the game simply because the devs made it. An attitude correction that Massive had to undergo the hard way, with The Division 1 that first year. They arrogantly assumed that---just because they wanted to build their game a certain way---that the were owed a community to play it. Only to find out that, no one cared what they expected. A lesson that Bungie is slowly learning. IF YOU ARE LECTURING YOUR COMMUNITY ABOUT YOUR "DESIGN PHILOSOPHY"...YOU ARE LOSING. Players don't care why the game is the way it is...or what the devs are trying to accomplish with it being that way. They care about whether the game is fun to play or not.
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작성자: Error Code: Skill Issue 12/20/2021 8:22:51 PMLike I said earlier, if people can’t handle higher difficulty content, the game has Legend and Master difficulty. They don’t have to complete NF’s on GM if they can’t handle it, they can complete it on a lower difficulty if that’s what they can personally handle. Clearly, higher difficulty content isn’t for you. https://nightfall.report/guardian/3/4611686018467437886 GM’s are supposed to be difficult and challenging, and a test of teamwork and coordination. There’s nothing to be ashamed of if you have to stick with lower difficulties.
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[quote]Like I said earlier, if people can’t handle higher difficulty content, the game has Legend and Master difficulty. They don’t have to complete NF’s on GM if they can’t handle it, they can complete it on a lower difficulty if that’s what they can personally handle. Clearly, higher difficulty content isn’t for you. https://nightfall.report/guardian/3/4611686018467437886 GM’s are supposed to be difficult and challenging, and a test of teamwork and coordination. There’s nothing to be ashamed of if you have to stick with lower difficulties.[/quote] The issue isn’t completing it, the issue is wasting 30-40 mins of my life for the same perks rolls or a weapon I didn’t want. -blam!- cares of lower skilled players are getting good weapons but farming the easiest GM. If a less skilled player has a god roll it’s not a god roll in their hands unless it PvE anyway because for most pvp rolls if you aren’t a pvp player you won’t use it right anyway. Farming as a whole in this game is a sad, slow sometimes pointless grind unless you lucky because for example I have Eyasluna with Heating Up/Kill Clip/ Range MW I was trying to farm for another roll all week in about 40-50 runs I got 2 HCs and repeat rolls on the sniper and nothing but armor.
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[quote]Like I said earlier, if people can’t handle higher difficulty content, the game has Legend and Master difficul[/quote] Or they leave the game and go play something else...and if Bungie can't keep enough players to keep the game profitable....or get enough players to engage wtih a game mode to make it worth the resources its consumes? Who cares. Like I said, If you are having to INSULT people and LECTURE them on what the game "should" be, and what the "design philosophy" is? You are lost...and have missed the point entirely. Bungie ran into that three years ago with Master work cores and infusion. They made the cost to infuse gear absurdly expensive trying to cover up the lack of loot and increase the level of grind. Like you people were running around insisting that people weren't enjoying playing the game because we "weren't playing right"....or we were failing some sort of test of character. Bungie devs gave one of the most TONE DEAT TWABs in the history of the franchise as they lectured us about how we didn't understand their philosophy, and what role the cores were supposed to play. So they renamed them "Enhancement Cores". The point is that people DIDN"T GIVE A -blam!-. The problem was the changes they made was throwing SAND in the gears of the game's primary reward loop...and shitting all over the power-fantasy. As people had tons of stuff in their vault that they couldn't use, because there was no way to get the resources needed to make them usable. So people just stopped playing....and Bungie spent the rest of year trying to wallpaper over the problem and keep people in the game by giving them ways to bypass that inflated, unrewarding grind. Until Shadowkeep...when they finally came to their senses and did what I said they needed to do a year earlier...STOP USING CORES AS BOTH THE CURRENCY FOR MASTERWORKING...AND THE CURRENCY FOR INFUSION. . They leftcores as the currency for MW....and created a new, more accessible currency (Infusion modules) for infusion. Problem solved. [quote]There’s nothing to be ashamed of if you have to stick with lower difficulties.[/quote] I'm not ashamed of anything. Because at this stage in my life I have NOTHING to prove...and certainly nothing to prove playing a kid's game. The point is that what Bungie is doing with GMNFs is self-defeating...and shows that they refuse to learn the lessons from when they made similar mistakes...and had to eventually knuckle under and roll them back. ...and they are showing the same signs as in previous years when they did crack. They are no longer defending what they are doing...and are just scrambling in the background trying to "fix" it. But they'll eventually get tired of this...and relent. Just like they did with Trials. I don't care either way. I'm just tired of watchnig Bungie do the same things over and over again while expecting a different result each time.
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If people need to go play another game that’s more suited for their skill level, they’re free to do so. The rest of us will have fun running GM’s. The more challenging ones, not the easiest GM’s the game has to offer.
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That's what they're doing. They aren't playing GMs...or they're cheesing GMs by playing the easiest one. BUNGIE is the one who doesn't like this. Bungie wants to make content for the best-of-the best.... ...and then balks at the consequences that its creates. I dont' care one way or the other what Bungie does with it. Its bad content. I dont' enjoy playing it...and the only reason I engage with it at all is to help my clanmates who want the loot for PVP. I help them get what they want done...and then I'm out. If they have the bodies they need? I don't bother, and haven't missed anything of value to me.
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What part of, [i]”I don’t”[/i] was unclear?!?! I don’t have a dog in this fight. But people like yourself just don’t want to hear the truth about what’s going on. Bungie likes to talk about making content for the 1%…but then can’t accept that only 1% of the player base is interested in playing it when they’re done making it.
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작성자: TheArtist 12/20/2021 9:41:09 PMSure. Or they don’t find the offering to be fun. The problem is that Bungie can’t accept this. The want strong engagement while touting that certain content is for the best of the best…and not for the masses. Which is it?? If it’s for the 1%, then accept it when only 10k people show up to play per day. Simple math. But if you want more than that then you have to give people what they want. They won’t come simply because you build it.
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Been seeing you Blizzard and Rednay go back and forth over this on several posts... Tried to read objectively and as much of the posts as possible..thy are abit wordy..so pardon if you've said it already.. My question is, if Bungie dums down the GMs to a level where more players can comfortably and easily complete them, how do you propose Bungie keep players engaged after everyone walks through a GM with ease and it gets boring and player base starts falling off? You are the Bungie CEO, what do you do about it?
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작성자: TheArtist 12/21/2021 5:05:39 PMYou can't serve two masters. Which 90% of this games ongoing problems are due to Bungie's stubborn refusal to accept. A game that is made for "everyone", is a game that is ultimately made for "no one". You can't make a game for people who are lookign for power-fantasy and for those who are looking to "test themselves/test their skill" at the same time. Because the conditions that appeal to those looking to test themselves, will annoy those who want to feel powerful. While making the player feel powerful won't satisfy those who are looking to push themselves to their limit. The needs and expectations of the two kinds of games are INCOMPATIBLE. Which isn't a problem. Dark Souls games are great...for those who enjoy them. The games are what they are....I don't enjoy them personally...but I dont' begrudge those who do that experience. Have at it....Have fun...I just won't be joining you. Likewise, POWER-FANTASY IS NOT A PROBLEM. The game becoming EAISER as you progess is NOT A PROBLEM. IT IS THE REWARD FOR YOUR EFFORTS. That feeling of flying around and -blam!--stomping the game IS WHY WE PLAY. ...and when we don't get that feeling we are unhappy. When at end-game I'm still having to hide and slink around like footsoldier in a conventional army I am not happy....becauuse that is NOT the experience i'm paying for, and it is NOT the experience the game has promised. "Becom Legend". Hard to be Legend face down in the dirt and mud trying to keep your head on your shoulders. The problem is Bungie's stubborn refusal to READ THE ROOM. To push ahead with the kind of game "they want to make"....and that a vocal minority wants. While ignoring what the feed back of the majority of the player base is saying. Bungie made that same mistake with vanilla D2, and forcing a game made for competitive PVP onto a player base that wanted a loot-based power-fantasy game. Now they are making the same mistake just in a different part of the game. Now trying to force this super-punishing "aspirational" (Souls like) content on a player base that doesn't want it....and largely doesn't enjoy it. While blinding themselves to the fact that people are trying to cheese it, means that it is not being well-recieved. Because the NEXT stop will simply be that people stop playing it altogether.... ...and Then Bungie is going to have to decided to either stand their ground and accept the poor engagement. Or start nerfing it, in order to bolster the engagement. Just like they did with The Reckoning....and every OTHER time they've done this. My irritation isn't with this content being in the game. Its with Bungie's refusal to learn from prior mistakes....and so they just keep REPEATING them. [quote]You are the Bungie CEO, what do you do about it?[/quote] What they are doing as part of their long-term plan. Hire more people....make more content on a shorter cycle. You keep people interested in a power-fantasy game not by making things harder and diluting that fantasy. You keep them interested by giving them more things to do....and more things to chase. Bungie has had to go the GMNF route because they've lacked the resources to do that. They lack the manpower to make enough content. They lacked the ability and resources to make enough loot. So the history of the franchise is a series of band-aids designed to cover up those deficiencies in the game. But it seems that Bungie is finally getting around to what has been needed, so they can set up this game so that it can be sustained in a healthy way, within the confines of player expectations. They can keep going down this road of GMs...but it is always going to suffer from poor engagement...and efforts to "fix" it are wasted resources. If you put burgers on a pizzeria menu, don't get frustrated when few people eat them. Because people who go to pizza places generally want pizza.
