[quote]But you're absolutely right about the impact. Which has been that Warlocks have had 2/3s of their abilities and builds BROKEN in PVE in the name of PvP balance. Because the SECOND Warlocks become powerful enough to be competitive in PvP.....the nerf calls start from the Hunters and Titans who are the game's high level PvP players.[/quote] Top-tree Dawnblade would like a word with you. If you’re tired of hearing that, well, cry me a river. I’m tired of sayin’ it. Bottom-tree is perfectly good in PvE. Middle tree, of course, is downright indispensable depending on the activity; but of course, another warlock main actually complained about being so useful in that subclass, so this is feeling more and more like a case of “you can’t please everyone”. Virtually any Stormcaller tree has also served me well in PvE, as well as two of the three Voidwalkers. [quote]The nerfs that Bungie is planning for stasis next week, though give hope. 1. This set of surgical nerfs to stasis are the farthest I've EVER seen Bungie willing to go in terms of tuning the PVE and PvP sandboxes seperately. I hope this continues, Warlocks will be the beneficiaries of this.[/quote] Agreed, except that [i]everyone[/i] benefits from this new approach, not just Warlocks. [quote]I agree, the speed at which Bungie nerfed Shadebinder (8 days was a record. No other subclass in the game has EVER been nerfed that fast.....ever.) was dizzying....and a bit shameful. Fortunately Bungie admitted that they broke it, and walked it back some what.[/quote] They speed-nerfed it because it was morbidly, disgustingly overpowered in the crucible. It was shameful to release it in that broken, unbalanced state to begin with; not shameful to cripple it quickly. And they knew they were crippling it. That was the point; they needed a bandaid solution which they could implement fast while they got to work on a more permanent, but also more time-consuming, rebalance. They always intended to buff it after that initial nerf. They weren’t “admitting” anything, or walking anything back.

You guys keep saying “BuT tOp TrEe DaWn!”. But if one subclass is the only comp viable subclass, then they need buffs, you can’t keep using one subclass as an excuse to continually shut down any other Lock classes that show a semblance of viability. Warlocks will benefit the most from these changes, Hunter and Titan stand it get nerfed. The only thing that Warlocks had over Hunters and Titan was nerfed, because we can’t have shit in Detroit. Hate propel using Top Tree Dawn as an excuse to keep Warlocks shit, it’s peeving me off.

Ah yes the delusional Warlock main. Unable to see the power his class holds.

The power of 1 subclass. Out of all of the 13 subclass/subclass trees, only 1 has been consistently good. The rest have had about 2 weeks to shine before the community whines enough so Bungie can nerf them.

Mhm I can tell you now that the warlock class has the biggest and strongest build potential in PvE. Alot of the Exotics are very good in PvE as well. As for PvP people seem to be overeacting about Chaos reachs Nerf saying it going to kill the subclass. Nah it just means your not gonna be popping a super every round of Trails and have to wait abit like everyone else. People are crying as they cant crutch on it as much as they use too. I myself do builds all the time for all three classes for members of my clan and my personal friends who are not in said clan. So im constantly making viable things to use on each class and i have way way more class builds for warlocks than the other two combined. So before someone tells me there class is useless think about how many times im having to use nothing but Golden gun, or Tether in PvE as those are the main options for endgame. Or if im on my Titan then its Either Bubble or Thundercrash now. But when i get on my lock i can Rock Middle and bottom tree dawnblade (bottom is great with dawn chorus), Chaos reach, and Top tree Nova. The fact people dont see the strength their class has shows to me personally that they dont try hard enough in perfecting thier class. I may be a hunter main but I know the strengths of all three classes. And do still play on the others at least twice a week. Now enjoy your Buffed Shadebinder and stop complaining about your class being "weak". Its getting tiresome pointing thus stuff out to you people.

[quote]Mhm I can tell you now that the warlock class has the biggest and strongest build potential in PvE. Alot of the Exotics are very good in PvE as well. As for PvP people seem to be overeacting about Chaos reachs Nerf saying it going to kill the subclass. Nah it just means your not gonna be popping a super every round of Trails and have to wait abit like everyone else. People are crying as they cant crutch on it as much as they use too. I myself do builds all the time for all three classes for members of my clan and my personal friends who are not in said clan. So im constantly making viable things to use on each class and i have way way more class builds for warlocks than the other two combined. So before someone tells me there class is useless think about how many times im having to use nothing but Golden gun, or Tether in PvE as those are the main options for endgame. Or if im on my Titan then its Either Bubble or Thundercrash now. But when i get on my lock i can Rock Middle and bottom tree dawnblade (bottom is great with dawn chorus), Chaos reach, and Top tree Nova. The fact people dont see the strength their class has shows to me personally that they dont try hard enough in perfecting thier class. I may be a hunter main but I know the strengths of all three classes. And do still play on the others at least twice a week. Now enjoy your Buffed Shadebinder and stop complaining about your class being "weak". Its getting tiresome pointing thus stuff out to you people.[/quote] Oh I’m talking PvP, in terms of PvE most subclasses are viable. Hunters have always had atleast two really strong subclasses, you using Golden Gun is completely on you (in terms of PvP). They’ve always had tether, Spectral, and now stasis as solid alternatives. I’m excited for the Shadebinder buffs, I think the melee needs tuning but if they buff the other aspects enough I might start using my winter’s guile again.

That one subclass has been the only viable comp subclass because it’s so much better than the others. The others don’t need to be buffed, Dawnblade needs to be taken down a peg. Bringing everything up to Dawnblade’s level introduces (more) power creep.

[quote]That one subclass has been the only viable comp subclass because it’s so much better than the others. The others don’t need to be buffed, Dawnblade needs to be taken down a peg. Bringing everything up to Dawnblade’s level introduces (more) power creep.[/quote] DID YOU JUST SAY DAWNBLADE NEEDS TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG YOUR JOKING. THE ONYL THING THAT KEEPS WARLOCKS IN THE META BEING NERFED? WHAT? Warlock literally has nothing over the other classes, the incessant community ceding has reduced them to a shell of their former selves with only 1 viable subclass left. If you want nothing to be buffed then Titans and Hunters need to have most of their classes reduced to ash and keep only 1 subclass to make them on-par with current Warlocks.

Okay. In your opinion, which subclasses from the other two classes can match top-tree Dawnblade in the crucible? Not including Stasis, since A) it’s unbalanced across the board, and B) the Dawnblade argument is older than the Stasis subclasses.

[quote]Okay. In your opinion, which subclasses from the other two classes can match top-tree Dawnblade in the crucible? Not including Stasis, since A) it’s unbalanced across the board, and B) the Dawnblade argument is older than the Stasis subclasses.[/quote] Hunters have Spectral for a long lasting, fast, hard to see super that has wallhacks to hunt down does. Titans have either Bottom Tree Striker For a Ling Lasting, Fast, Deadly, and intimidating super when paired with other exotics.

1. Sure....and I'd win that discussion, because its a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Top tree-dawnblade is one of the few really effective Warlock builds that are both effective in PVE, and competitive in PVP.... ....and before complaining about stasis became "meta', you couldn't swing a dead cat and avoid hitting someone demanding that it be nerfed....and that its nerf was "overdue". 2. Bottom-tree Dawnblade is only good in low-level content. Its tendency to hang up in the air makes it extremely vulnerable to the spammy, high-damage fire you see in raids, nightfalls and other end-game content. 3. Stormcaller in D2 only seems good if you've never played the subclass in D1. It is an empty husk compared to what it used to be. It is so underpowered that you basically have to sacrifice your exotic armor slot just to buff it to the point where its usable in low-level content. 4. Middle tree Dawnblade (Well of Radiance) and Voidwalker (preferably top-tree) are Warlock end-game meta....with Shadbinder starting to carve its own place. Nova Warp is so bad that it is its own meme. I actually had someone use it in a strike last week, and I just busted out laughing. 5. Agree, Everyone will benefit from seperation of the sandboxes. But Warlocks will benefit the most, because they've been harmed the MOST by the unified standbox and PVP basically having control over how the sandbox is tuned. 6. Disagree. It was JUST as broken as every other Stasis subclass. Its just that people figured out how to leverage Warlocks faster.....and the bias that is part of PVP in this game kicked in. When Warlocks become competitive, it means something in the game is broken. Because it means that some ability thay possess is strong. Revenant was JUST as strong...and yet it took WEEKS for the complaints about it to start.

You overuse ellipses, and it’s frustrating me. [quote]1. Sure....and I'd win that discussion, because its a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Top tree-dawnblade is one of the few really effective Warlock builds that are both effective in PVE, and competitive in PVP....[/quote] You seem to think you always win every discussion I’ve seen you participate in on these forums, so you’ll excuse me if I take your statement with a grain of salt about the size of Seattle. Or just ignore it entirely, because opening a counter-argument with “but I’d just win that debate” is as pointless as declaring your dad could beat up my dad. You’re also moving the goalposts. Originally you were just complaining that 2/3rds of all warlock abilities have been broken in PvE to achieve PvP balance. I pointed out that this was a blatant falsehood, and now you’re sounding like you want every Warlock subclass to be good for both. You’re changing your position. [quote]....and before complaining about stasis became "meta', you couldn't swing a dead cat and avoid hitting someone demanding that it be nerfed....and that its nerf was "overdue". [/quote] Yeah, because it was. And is. Have you never watched a video of a Warlock pro in Trials? Those ingrates can move faster than Hunters; they can float longer than it takes a sample of carbon-11 to decay (note: deliberate hyperbole); they get a bloody tracking missile instead of a melee—except it also works at melee range, unlike smoke bombs, throwing knives, throwing hammers, shiver strike, or, hell, even penumbral blast—their Super is ranged, usable from, and in fact [i]thrives[/i] in the Dawnblade’s standard cruising altitude of 20 meters; kills in the air recharge their melee; they can change direction in the air, which is outrageous; and of course, in those rare moments that they need to take a breather or chew up someone’s hopes and dreams with a handy damage boost, they can always pop a Rift. And this is all without any exotic armor equipped. Stasis took the focus off of older subclasses, and it certainly can be used to counter all of them, but that doesn’t make top-Dawnblade not a problem. It just makes it not a [i]priority[/i]. [quote]2. Bottom-tree Dawnblade is only good in low-level content. Its tendency to hang up in the air makes it extremely vulnerable to the spammy, high-damage fire you see in raids, nightfalls and other end-game content.[/quote] Except for that little trick where you can hold the class-ability button in midair to drop down and recover some health. But even ignoring that, your claim that it’s only good in low-level content is true only because it brings nothing terribly useful to them. Bottom-tree is great for individual play, but in raids and nightfalls you need either high-DPS abilities, or ones which will supplement the damage output of yourself and your fireteam—or, in the rare event that you don’t need to do either, abilities which are good for crowd control. For all three of these, Warlocks have other subclasses which are better options—but that’s true of all three classes. It’s not like anyone’s gonna desperately beg me to run top-tree Striker Titan when we decide to harass Taniks for the 693rd time. [quote]3. Stormcaller in D2 only seems good if you've never played the subclass in D1. It is an empty husk compared to what it used to be. It is so underpowered that you basically have to sacrifice your exotic armor slot just to buff it to the point where its usable in low-level content.[/quote] Kinda reminds me of how I have to sacrifice my exotic slot for my Hunter in every subclass, since dodge don’t got no health regen without that magic yellow worm helmet I done stole from that guy on Mars. I played it in D1, but I honestly don’t remember it that well. I’m perfectly fine with how it performs in D2. And by the way, you’re acting like the Crown of Tempests barely gets Stormcaller to usability, but...dude. That thing is outrageous. Using it during playlist strikes made me feel a little bad for stealing so many kills. I feel like I shouldn’t need to use more than one hand to count how many times I pop a Super. If you wanna talk about high-level content, well, we come back to the issue with Dawnblade. Stormcaller isn’t useless, it’s just that more useful options exist when you’re dealing with hoards of enemies that can one-shot you with an extra-hard sneeze. [quote]4. Middle tree Dawnblade (Well of Radiance) and Voidwalker (preferably top-tree) are Warlock end-game meta....with Shadbinder starting to carve its own place. Nova Warp is so bad that it is its own meme. I actually had someone use it in a strike last week, and I just busted out laughing.[/quote] Apart from the bit about sandboxes, one thing you and I can agree on is that Nova Warp needs love. It’s tragic. But I did have that in mind when I worded my original comment. I didn’t say [i]every[/i] Warlock subclass is good right now, just that most of them are. [quote]5. Agree, Everyone will benefit from seperation of the sandboxes. But Warlocks will benefit the most, because they've been harmed the MOST by the unified standbox and PVP basically having control over how the sandbox is tuned.[/quote] Were they harmed most, or did they just have farther to fall than the other two classes? As an aside, I recall an awful lot of handheld supernovas ruining my fun when I began playing this game’s PvP... [quote]6. Disagree. It was JUST as broken as every other Stasis subclass. Its just that people figured out how to leverage Warlocks faster.....and the bias that is part of PVP in this game kicked in. When Warlocks become competitive, it means something in the game is broken. Because it means that some ability thay possess is strong. Revenant was JUST as strong...and yet it took WEEKS for the complaints about it to start.[/quote] So many problems with this. To start, “broken” isn’t just a measure of how powerful the subclass is in the right hands; the fact that it was so much easier to leverage Shadebinder than either of the other two is indicative of how unbalanced it was. Additionally, your argument implies that, had Bungie waited, the other two classes would’ve caught up. But you can’t possibly prove that, because we don’t live in that universe. We live in the one where they got the early nerf. Personally, I think you’re...well, a little insane, because did you SEE what they could do in the crucible? Good lord. Second, your bias is showing. Put that away. The problem isn’t that Warlocks are/were “competitive”, it’s that they are/were [i]dominant[/i]. Dawnblade and at-launch Shadebinder were absolute gods. Dawnblade likely still would be if Stasis wasn’t intrinsically good at cramping various styles; heck, maybe it still is, and people just haven’t refocused on it yet. Revenant definitely wasn’t just as strong at launch. Shadebinders had a Super with a much faster time-to-incapacitate-and/or-kill, and could insta-freeze with a single melee. To freeze with a melee, Revenants had to land two consecutive shurikens—and would start a match with only one charged. The only advantage they had was Shatterdive, but that still wasn’t a one-shot by itself. Revenant didn’t simply get ignored until SB got nerfed, like you’re claiming; SB getting nerfed just let the weaker classes rise to the top. The state of being “overpowered” is relative to the other options in the game.

Your arguement has become personal now, your bias is showing. 2/3 of all abilities are trash, and PvE viability has taken a hit because of the incessant nerfs. Don’t act like the death dealing blows alpha vent effected PvE, only 2 subclasses are left standing. Your bias to, you don’t play Lock and you said earlier in your comment that you think that KG2 is wrong for thinking he won the arguement. When you start name calling, your arguement contains bias even in the sliders sense.

[quote]Your arguement has become personal now, your bias is showing.[/quote] ...good lord, I’m arguing with a parrot now. [quote]2/3 of all abilities are trash, and PvE viability has taken a hit because of the incessant nerfs. Don’t act like the death dealing blows alpha vent effected PvE, only 2 subclasses are left standing.[/quote] 2/3 of all abilities, really? Which ones? [quote]Your bias to, you don’t play Lock and you said earlier in your comment that you think that KG2 is wrong for thinking he won the arguement.[/quote] I actually do, it’s just not my main. Also, it’s “you’re”, “biased”, and “argument”. And I was saying it was pointless for KG2 to say “I’d win that discussion too...” because it was both not a valid argument and pretty arrogant. [quote]When you start name calling, your arguement contains bias even in the sliders sense.[/quote] It’s “slightest sense”. But ya know, you’re right. I admit I’m biased. Everyone is, so I don’t feel bad admitting that; however, there are different degrees and varieties of bias. I think my argument was correct because I don’t feel particularly biased towards or against one class or another; I’m biased toward KellyGreen2, based on our previous interactions on these forums and how he tends to act. But I’m not biased, or I’m at least less biased, on the topic of conversation.

You know what you win the bias arguement. 2/3 of abilities, or subclasses. (Should’ve specified). - Nova Warp and HHSN were nerfed to extinction, they are neat little gimmicks, but NW gets beat by most other roaming supers, and HHSN is just worse than a normal nade. - Nova Bomb, it’s to slow to be used as a counter super in most of the close quarters makes, and I very rarely get a kill with one of the lasting effects of either of the trees. - Stormcaller is really slow, and teleporting takes a large amount of energy, is really only OK for PvE - Chaos Reach isn’t anything good anymore, it’s slow turning so it’s hard to use as a shit down/ 1-use super. It was really only good when you could get more than 2 a game. - Middle Tree Solar is good for PvE, but utterly useless in PvP. - Bottom Tree Solar doesn’t have anything over the other Solar Subclasses. - Stasis was nerfed real hard to the point that “fighting stasis with stasis” in a stasis META is a uphill battle, the class doesn’t have anything over the others.

I disagree with you on the chaos reach nerf. I have mained chaos reach for months and Its good for more than boss damage, it's great for major clear and add wipe and you get to keep a good portion of super, this nerf could really screw it over in PvE.

Your individual play style, maybe. But not how its used in PVE as a whole. The majority of PVE players save it, and then dump it into a high priority target like a boss or mini-boss....and the nerf won't affect that way of using it to any significant degree. ...and if you want to use it in the way you were, you can still build around it by equipping Geo Mags.

I mean in actual end game content (grandmasters) u aren't using it for boss dmg ur using it for add clear to get more orbs and more supers.

I mean, the thing is that there's no point of the nerf in PvE and it does harm some people so why nerf it in the first place and while geomags are great and I have a ridiculously good roll of them, sometimes I want to use another exotic like karnstien armlets or something else. I just think the nerf was an unnecessary blow to PvE that reduces the versatility of the super.

[quote]I mean, the thing is that there's no point of the nerf in PvE and it does harm some people so why nerf it in the first place [/quote] Because its breaking PVP. Trials and Comp matches can swing based on when someone gets a super and how well they use it. The Chaos Reach/Geomags build...and the play style you're talking about is an interesting oddity in PVE....it is game-breaking in 3v3 PvP. Because combine a high intellect stat build with Geo Mags....and you wind up with someone with such an uptime on their super that it breaks the game.