[quote]I would argue that much of what you’re pointing out comes down to a matter of perspective. Essentially it’s two different narratives, Bungie’s viewpoint versus the Forum Community’s viewpoint. Neither side seems fully capable of grasping what the other thinks, wants, intends, etc., which I believe is the root of our problems here. Yes, Bungie has been consistently falling short of community expectations when you read these forums. Yes, sunsetting is a very unpopular decision. Yes, there seems to be less “bang for your buck” with each subsequent expansion. All that said however, I still maintain that Bungie simply cannot be [i]purposefully[/i] delivering poor quality content. [spoiler]I recognize that the previous sentence sounds like Bungie defense, which typically means you get immediately ignored, however that’s not my intent. Hear me out.[/spoiler] If you had created something you thought was good, maybe a piece of art or something, and put it on public display for an auction, you typically wouldn’t do that unless you thought it was a quality piece. Imagine then that you got feedback from two different people... The first person says that you’re awful and talentless, that their cousin’s handicapped dog could create a better piece of artwork, that you were scamming the community by attempting to sell this garbage, and that you should go die in a hole. The second person says that they can see the effort you put into your work and, while there are some positives, your shading and perspective could use some significant work if you’re wanting to make a masterpiece. Both are critical of your work, but only one response has any real credibility. Which one would you be more likely to listen to? In case to missed it, the first critique represented the tactics employed in these forums. The simple fact is that these forums are a horribly ineffective community mouthpiece. The majority of posts here are intensely negative and consistently assume the worst possible actions and intent from Bungie, and the replies are even more toxic than the original posts. When you’re unreasonably, illogically hateful, you’re going to be ignored. Not excusing Bungie’s recent actions, simply pointing out that the way people approach Bungie in these forums makes it easy for them to ignore anything they read here because most of it lacks any common sense, decency, and credibility. Something to think about.[/quote] So much wrong with this and little truth from My perspective. Reply to first three paragraphs; Everything is a matter of perspective, this doesn't change what happened which is the players keep paying the price for Bungie's mismanagement of the game. You may say "Bungie cannot purposefully delivering poor content". But that doesn't mean Bungie considers this as poor content, or Bungie may not have choice due resources, management, money etc. So, Bungie can't or won't release something that is not quality is nothing more than an opinion, and not an argument. About what you said about feedback in this forum; You do talk like this is the only venue that Bungie gets feedback from (which is not, this forum where they barely reply anyone, it's reddit and Twitter) which it is not. Therefore even this forum sucked at giving feedback Bungie still should have tons of feedback without the forum. Again you also talk like there hasn't been good back coming from this forum which you are wrong about, but what you don't mention how Bungie treats the posts that have what they call good feedback and bad feedback. They treat it with silence all the same which indicates they simply don't really care about their own forum. That is also obvious with moderator behaviour in these forums as well. You are ignoring the feedback brought D1 where it was when it's ended and what Bungie did? Scrapped all of it to create one of the worst times of Destiny franchise, if not the worst. I see you critize the feedback given, but I don't see you critize the feedback thrown out? You can't have it both ways. Bungie has created this environment in the forum themselves by appointing mods that don't do their jobs, likewise for community managers.

People seem to be getting really hung up on the “subjective” parts of my post rather than the overarching point about messaging... Ok then, here are the facts that we are operating from: Since splitting with Activision, the size and scope of Bungie’s dev team has changed significantly. Bungie has attempted to steer D2 towards more of an RPG-style game. In the process of that change, Bungie has made some controversial decisions (like sunsetting) that have led to negative [i]opinions[/i] from many players and content creators. Those are the facts, correct? Now let’s take a look at your post... [quote]Everything is a matter of perspective, this doesn't change what happened which is the players keep paying the price for Bungie's mismanagement of the game.[/quote] You believe you’ve been negatively affected by Bungie‘s “mismanagement” of the game. I don’t feel the same way, my level of enjoyment hasn’t decreased at all. I also think that “mismanagement” is a subjective term because it implies a negative affect to the player (an opinion based metric). That’s the problem with arguing perspective, there’s no guarantee the other person in the discussion will agree with your opinion. Either way, opinion is not fact. [quote]You may say "Bungie cannot purposefully delivering poor content". But that doesn't mean Bungie considers this as poor content, or Bungie may not have choice due resources, management, money etc.[/quote] I think you’re kind of arguing my point for me here. And, if you go back to my original post, I was clearly stating my opinion when I said that “I still maintain that Bungie simply cannot [i]purposefully[/i] be delivering poor content.” I’m obviously not able to speak to Bungie and their intentions, I was making a judgment regarding their motives. Clearly an opinion (never argued otherwise either). [quote]So, Bungie can't or won't release something that is not quality is nothing more than an opinion, and not an argument.[/quote] Dude, all arguments are opinions. Not sure what you’re trying to say there. [quote]You do talk like this is the only venue that Bungie gets feedback from (which is not, this forum where they barely reply anyone, it's reddit and Twitter) which it is not. Therefore even this forum sucked at giving feedback Bungie still should have tons of feedback without the forum. [/quote] Nope, not true. No where did I say that this was the only feedback avenue for Bungie, simply that I was restricting my opinions to the content in these forums. If you go back and read the discussions I’ve been having with people, it’s been acknowledged at least once that social media and Reddit are typically far more positive forms of feedback. [quote]Again you also talk like there hasn't been good back coming from this forum which you are wrong about, but what you don't mention how Bungie treats the posts that have what they call good feedback and bad feedback. They treat it with silence all the same which indicates they simply don't really care about their own forum. That is also obvious with moderator behaviour in these forums as well.[/quote] Also not true. I never stated that there aren’t positive examples of constructive feedback in these forums. I did state, and I stand by my observations, that the [i]majority[/i] of the posts here are intensely negative and largely toxic. As you correctly pointed out, Bungie is largely absent from these forums because, I believe, they see them for the cesspool that they often are. You’re kind of arguing my point for me again. [quote]You are ignoring the feedback brought D1 where it was when it's ended and what Bungie did? Scrapped all of it to create one of the worst times of Destiny franchise, if not the worst.[/quote] You’re not wrong here, Bungie did seem to ignore much of D1’s successes when creating D2 vanilla. Not sure how that’s relevant to this discussion. [quote]I see you critize the feedback given, but I don't see you critize the feedback thrown out? You can't have it both ways.[/quote] Very hard to follow the point you’re trying to make here. I’m unsure what “both ways” you’re meaning. Can you explain that further? I kind of feel like you replied to my post because you were trying to get some sort of “Gotcha!” moment where you punched holes in my argument. Instead you managed to make my own argument for me several times. Not sure whether to be offended or appreciative 😂

This is gonna be fun, I shall reply when I get back on PC 😁

[quote]Yes, Bungie has been consistently falling short of community expectations when you read these forums. Yes, sunsetting is a very unpopular decision. Yes, there seems to be less “bang for your buck” with each subsequent expansion. All that said however, I still maintain that Bungie simply cannot be [i]purposefully[/i] delivering poor quality content. [/quote] [i]Malice, or incompetence? That is the question.[/i] When you make as many obvious mistakes as Bungie has been doing over this year, [b]especially[/b] as something as seasoned, large and monetarily successful as Bungie, it makes some people start doubting you. Again, which one is it? Personally, knowing how they're working on new IP's, and what the Director of this game thinks of me as a player, I'll go with the former.

At end of the day i wood listeni to the 2 side maybe get a 3d opinion and pick Who i think is right but if artis think he or she has not dun has good as tha can the artis just dus the next picture better and lets the 1thets thaer be as is bungie is listening to no1

[quote]you’re awful and talentless, that their cousin’s handicapped dog could create a better piece of artwork, that you were scamming the community by attempting to sell this garbage, and that you should go die in a hole.[/quote] Just a heads up, I’m borrowing this. Have some emails to write

Lol you go right ahead, sir. I took my inspiration from some of the things I've seen in these forums, but I have to admit, I was proud at both the thoroughness and outlandishness of the example I put together. Enjoy!

Though considering your lengthy post. You are also being biased to people of this forum alone. You need to go around. Smell the coffee everywhere. See the world, through your screen. Clearly, the entire community is saying the same. Trust me, I've seen it. Go ahead, look around everywhere in the community. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you'll find them. They are just as the same. Not worse. But the theme is the same. Once you realize that. Then we can talk.

[quote]Though considering your lengthy post. You are also being biased to people of this forum alone. You need to go around. Smell the coffee everywhere. See the world, through your screen. Clearly, the entire community is saying the same. Trust me, I've seen it. Go ahead, look around everywhere in the community. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you'll find them. They are just as the same. Not worse. But the theme is the same. Once you realize that. Then we can talk.[/quote] 😂 So essentially I need to educate myself before you’ll consider talking to me? Adorable, but I’ll leave that one alone for the moment. The problem with your response is that it is hardly relevant to my point at all. I’m not commenting on the perspective of the community (much of which I share). The issues being echoed in the forums are also being presented by streamers, through social media, on Reddit, etc. I’m not disputing that. Instead, if you had read the post you responded to, you’d see that I’m commenting on the methods people in [i]these forums[/i] use when they attempt to present their arguments. I focused my attention on these forums because that’s where this discussion is taking place. The general tone here is intensely negative, often completely toxic and insulting. When information that is supposed to be “feedback” is presented in such a way, it makes it easier for the recipient to ignore the message because the toxic tone often strips away any credibility the critique may have had. If the people here were willing to speak and debate in a more constructive manner, these forums would become a much more effective messenger of the community’s ideas. That’s the point I was making initially. For what it’s worth, you’re passing opinions off as facts here: [quote]Clearly, the entire community is saying the same. Trust me, I've seen it.[/quote] If you look at the numbers of players versus the number of active streamers, social media posters, etc. you’d see that only a small portion of the community is actually contained within that vocal minority. Not to say that they’re wrong or that the “silent majority” doesn’t also agree with them, just pointing out that the vocal minority is simply that: a minority. They just happen to have the loudest microphone in this instance.

Don’t you know? On the internet, we response after reading the title only

[quote]The general tone here is intensely negative, often completely toxic and insulting. When information that is supposed to be “feedback” is presented in such a way, it makes it easier for the recipient to ignore the message because the toxic tone often strips away any credibility the critique may have had. If the people here were willing to speak and debate in a more constructive manner, these forums would become a much more effective messenger of the community’s ideas. That’s the point I was making initially.[/quote] I disagree. You have a point. But incomplete. BOTH sides are toxic. Go look around these forums. When somebody constructs a comprehensive negative feedback complete with examples and solutions. Often times it is also met with toxicity from the other side. That's why I said you are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I'm not an expert in human relations, but these toxicity that you described before occurs on both sides and the toxicity may have been triggered and brought about by these past experiences from both sides of the bridge. It has just gotten worse overtime. You can probably dig up the history of this Forum since Destiny launched. I'm sure it was mild and has gotten worse over time because we (on both sides) created it among ourselves. That's my honest opinion. Not a fact. Just my observations here. [quote]For what it’s worth, you’re passing opinions off as facts here: [quote]Clearly, the entire community is saying the same. Trust me, I've seen it.[/quote] If you look at the numbers of players versus the number of active streamers, social media posters, etc. you’d see that only a small portion of the community is actually contained within that vocal minority. Not to say that they’re wrong or that the “silent majority” doesn’t also agree with them, just pointing out that the vocal minority is simply that: a minority. They just happen to have the loudest microphone in this instance.[/quote] If I'm not mistaken, there are currently about 20 million registered users of this game. We could say that is the entire community of this game. If we ask all 20 million who played this game, guess what would happen? You'll get 20 million different answers. That's the actual community voice. When I said the entire community, it was a figure of speech. What I meant by that is the entire community with the same perspective is yelling the same things over and over, everywhere. It means the same group of people who have some unified voice, almost saying the same things. Now that's much easier to understand than to ask 20 million individual gamer who actually registered and played the game. Don't you think? I didn't mean to say the entire community when I said my first post to you. I meant it as a figure of speech. A number that we could understand, saying almost exactly the same, over and over, everywhere. That's what I meant. You can take it or not, it's up to you. I was speaking in terms of something we could quantify and understand, rather than taking all 20 million voices as a whole. Catch my drift?

[quote]Go look around these forums. When somebody constructs a comprehensive negative feedback complete with examples and solutions. Often times it is also met with toxicity from the other side. That's why I said you are looking at it from a biased standpoint.[/quote] Ok, now I'm understanding your point when you mentioned bias. However, I would contend that you simply emphasized another facet of my original argument. Essentially, it comes down to this: The toxicity in these forums makes this place a very poor messenger of the community's wants and needs. That toxicity is both in the overall tone of negative feedback towards Bungie AND (as you correctly pointed out) towards individuals who attempt to offer more reasoned critiques. To critique your reasoning just a bit, that doesn't represent two different sides, that's the same toxicity from the forums being directed at two different sources: Bungie, and anyone who offers an alternative viewpoint to the overtly negative shouting in these forums. You don't even have to speak in favor of Bungie, if you sound even remotely like you support any of their decisions, you're immediately shouted down in most cases. Either way, this represents an additional extension to my argument that still shows that these forums aren't a good messenger for the community. [quote]When I said the entire community, it was a figure of speech. What I meant by that is the entire community with the same perspective is yelling the same things over and over, everywhere. It means the same group of people who have some unified voice, almost saying the same things.[/quote] I understand your reasoning now, thanks for clarifying. I don't necessarily agree that you'd have wildly different viewpoints if there was actually a way to survey the ENTIRE player base. I think what you'd find is essentially two general schools of thought: Those that are ok with the direction of the game, and those that are upset with the direction of the game. Within those that are upset with the direction of the game, there are also going to be several different 'degrees' of upset. Some, like myself, are frustrated with some of the decisions Bungie is making and the methods they're using, but are still having fun and enjoying the game. On the other extreme end of the frustrated group are those that are diametrically opposed to ANY decision Bungie makes and will belittle those that disagree. From my experience, most of that extreme anger group makes it home in these forums. When I go to other feedback outlets, I see a lot more of the reasonable discussions I would hope to see here. These are the feedback forums specifically created by Bungie on their own website, yet here is where the majority of the trolls seem to reside. That's really it, I just think that if people here would be willing to change the methods used to protest Bungie's decision, then it would be a lot easier to take them seriously. Here, I'ma get all historical and such, since yesterday was MLK day and all... Method is often much more important than the message for a protest and others' ability to hear their voices. With Dr. King and his commitment to non-violence throughout the Civil Rights movement, the only thing left to focus on was the message those protesters wanted to put forth. It was clear to any reasonable observer that the people resisting their non-violent message were the ones in the wrong. Fast forward to 2020/2021, and we see a different story. The protests for racial justice in America this past year largely remained peaceful, but there were some violent exceptions when protests became riots. The instant that happened, it allowed people who disagreed with their message to discount what they were saying and focus instead on the violence. Same with the Capitol riots a few weeks ago. Any message they might have tried to get across was overshadowed by the violence. While there isn't any physical violence in these forums, the toxicity has the same effect. It gives Bungie the easy ability to discount the critiques presented here since the methods are often so horrid.

Still disagree brother. You have very good points. But not representing reality. In reality, life is sometimes biased. You'll see this in professional settings. If you do a job at work, they commend you and praise you. But it's already expected of you to do a good job because that is your job to do in the first place. But when you screw up a job, even just one major screw up, you are a goner and all of a sudden everybody hates you and all the good things you've done for that same job is all forgotten and gone. Poof!!! This happens all the time in reality. It's happening now in the game, here in the forums, and elsewhere. Nothing is different. What you are calling for is civility. I would like that to happen as well. But that's not how the world works. I still believe that negativity is not just brought about by the hive mind. It has already been triggered by a bad experience, either in-game experiences, or gameplay, or rewards system, or the state of the game, or basically anything related about the game. Negativity is not a hive mind phenomenon. It's a personal experience. They are here because they already experienced something skewed about the game. Whatever comes out here could be enhanced by the hive mind. But they already have that disposition of negativity coming from the game even before the hive mind got to them. That's how the world works. That's how I see it and perceive it. Again, not to be taken as facts. Just an opinion.

Fair enough friend, I appreciate the debate either way. You’ve presented your points in a clear, reasonable manner and haven’t been toxic in return, thanks for that. Hopefully Bungie can turn things around and this whole discussion will be moot.

Well, your art analogy doesn’t truly make sense in that Destiny is not simply a picture, or a vase, aka a static object to observe. Destiny is a constantly changing, modifiable, interactive environment. Those are two VERY different entities. But, I understand what you were trying to say regardless. I’ve been critical of Bungie’s direction, nerfs, etc..., while simultaneously stating vociferously that the aesthetics and the fundamental pew-pew are spot on hot diggity dog good. One of the best pew-pew’ers I’ve ever played. Bottom line, critique isn’t binary. Many “aspects” to this game, definitely not binary wrt what critical posts represent. ie..., Bungie is crap..., or Bungie is God. That being said, criticism is criticism is criticism. It’s impossible for any of us to give Bungie ideas on the development of anything. Why? Nobody knows what they already have in the pipeline that would immediately invalidate any “thoughtful” criticism. Peer reviewed commentary can only be had if we Guardians are on equal footing with Bungie, or if Bungie were transparent, in the slightest. Which, they most definitely are not. The closest we had to that was CGBarrett, and that didn’t work out well for him. Bottom line, if I were Bungie, and I saw dozens of trash critical posts, some with very large upvote metrics, and one well thought out and reasoned post with zero comments and a zero upvote population, I would value the crap posts more. Bungie are adults, they are not twelve year old children, in need of constant praise, bc their self-esteem may be lacking. I don’t treat the manufacturer of any product I have purchased in that manner, they are not coddled. If Bungie wants or needs to be hand-held and coddled through their development processes, then they are definitely in the wrong business.

The analogy is sound in that I was focusing on how people respond to criticism of the things they’ve spent time and effort to create, not comparing a video game to a painting. Sorry if there was confusion there. You raise a fair point regarding upvotes, even if a post is nonsensical and toxic, seeing that thousands of others have upvoted it could give reason to consider the criticism presented. However, I would contend that a well reasoned critique post would get plenty of feedback, and likely far more constructive feedback than the crap posts get. I’ll submit my post and the solid responses and likes it’s received as evidence 😁 That said, you completely missed the point of what I was saying here: [quote]Bungie are adults, they are not twelve year old children, in need of constant praise, bc their self-esteem may be lacking.[/quote] This isn’t at all relevant to my argument. I don’t think that Bungie is childish or in need of being coddled. In fact, Bungie‘s viewpoint on the feedback they receive doesn’t really factor in to my responses at all. My point is that the methods used to present critiques have a clear impact on how those critiques are received. A well reasoned response will likely garner more consideration than a toxic crap post, regardless of whether the recipient is a random wanna-be artist or a reputable video game designer. That’s not indicative of the relative childishness of said recipient, simply that it’s human nature to respond more positively when others are respectful. That’s why I continue to believe that these forums are a poor mouthpiece for the community’s views.

Without a doubt the forums are a very poor way for this manufacturer to gauge a community’s feelings on their product. But, with Bungie it is all we/they have. If I’m a manufacturer of widget abc123 and I get significant negative feedback, am I really going to drill down with each individual? Or even one individual that is well reasoned and eloquent in her criticism? No, I’m not. And the reason is if I begin to evaluate the likes and dislikes of each person that provided feedback, the slippery slope will be that I’m trying to make a product to please everybody..., which is practically impossible. I’m going to make the product the way I want it made. Nothing wrong with that, perfectly reasonable, and imho, wise. But, the message I’ve just sent to all the critical feedback folks is effectively: “eff you, you are unimportant, i’ma do what i’ma do”. And when that happens, you’ll get personal attacks and generally poor commentary around here. Unfortunate, but true. Don’t believe me? Go back to the lazy warlock build vidoc. Oof, ppl can be mean, completely out of bounds commentary there. I always keep in mind that the lowest common denominator to post in this forum is: age 13 and have been to the farm. I just disagree with the notion that peer reviewed criticism is any more important than a layman’s rough words. Out of the mouths of babes comes immediately to mind. More often than not, the very harsh truth is needed more than fancy schmansy linguistic pedantic peddling. That’s just little old me though. Differences of opinion, without them, what a boring world we would be in! Right? I understand your message, I just disagree with the larger point.

These type of shortcuts have been a staple in the gaming industry for a while now. This is not by accident. No they are not trying to create a terrible product but they are squeezing every little penny out of the very least amount of work and content. Business wise it's brilliant, it's all about the money but not the clientele.