[quote]its a good thing, but people are into immediate gratification, and not thinking what's best for the long-term interests of the game. Problems with the status quo" 1. The game doesn't use dedicated servers, and can't without rebuilding the game from the ground up and/or changing engines. 2. This means that your console or PC has to shoulder the burden of running the game, running part of the game's networking, AND loading every in-game object you'll likely encounter into your machine's memory. 3. This has created a situation where the game is struggling to run on the base consoles. Load times are brutally long, and bottlenecking is frequent. PC users are blind to this because they dont' have to deal with it. Console users are often blind to how much better the game runs on PC. I play mainly on PS4 pro...and I finally had to get a SSD to run the game off of, because I just couldn't stand the loaing times any more. 4. If Bungie kept doing what they are currently doing, this game would eventually become unplayable on the current gen hardware, and probably before most people have switched to the new ones. Benefits of Vaulting content. 1. The content that is being vaulted is three years old, and essentially irrelevant to current game play. 2. Removing it from the game reduces install size, and will speed loading times. 3. Bungie is dropping lots of bread crumbs to suggest that they have (at a minimum) have given the game's network architecture and coding a major up grade. There is even a possiblity that there has been a major engine update/overhaul. 4. These changes seem to be focused on making the game's coding more efficient (and therefore file sizes smaller) and for the game to run more efficiently. 5. So another benefit of vaulting content is that it will allow these old sites to be reworked in order to be optimized for the new program structure. As well as a chance to be refreshed and given new relevance. Also---it seems----it allows for sites that were part of Destiny 1 to be given a similar treatment. So----in the long term----we will actually wind up with a LARGER game that works better than what we currently have. Which is why clinging to the status quo and fighting change really is kind of self-defeating if you actually enjoy playing this game.[/quote] What you defenders of Sunsetting and Content Vaulting fail to realize is that people out there will now be discouraged from Spending Money and be discouraged from Grinding. I’ll use myself as an example. When I look at Sunsetting, I think to myself “great! Not only did I waste my hard earned time into grinding for things like Mountain Top, Recluse and Randy’s Throwing Knife but now Bungie wants me to do it all over again just to take my loot away again, and again and again?! Such a unproductive, waste of time so why should I put myself through that go nowhere hamster wheel?” Grinding for things that can and will be taken from you is a slap in the face to people who went through hell to get those Weapons and Armor. People like me will look at Sunsetting and say, nope, I’m done. Let me ask you something. Let’s say you bought a $500 dollars on a huge 4,000 piece Death Star LEGO and you spent MONTHS building that Death Star and after you were done building it, some punk ass -blam!- of a brother comes by and smashes in on the ground breaking it into smithereens not only would you be fùcking pissed off, I guarantee you would NOT put that thing back together for a LONG ASS time because would be thinking, “I spent months putting that back together, I’m not doing it again.” Don’t say that you would because I know you wouldn’t, nobody in their right mind would regardless of how huge of a Star Wars fan you were. Because all that time was wasted. Now on to Content Vaulting. Again, I will use myself as an example. When I look at Content Vaulting, I think to myself “I spend over $280+ dollars on everything Destiny from Base Game to Shadowkeep/Season Pass etc. now they are taking away Content and Planets that I paid for!? Why should I spend anymore money on something that can be taken away at anytime? What a waste of money.” And it would deter me from spending anymore Time and Money on this Game. Understand Bungie is slapping paying Customers who spent so much time and money into the Game and it’s Content and Loot in the face at every turn. Customers who spent $100 for D2 Base Game, then another $60 for Forsaken/Annual Pass we’re $160 bucks in the hole in this Game at this point, then here comes Bungie with their open hand going. *SLAP!!!* “We’re making Destiny 2 Free to Play!!” Leaving people who spend $160+ dollars on the game up to this point going “what the fùck Bungie? You’re giving out this Game for Free when you should be making new players spend just as much money as we did if they want to experience Destiny 2 (would have been the better option since they parted ways with Activision to make that money) Then we spent all this time grinding for said Weapons and Armor then Bungie come by again going *SLAP!!* with their open hand going “hey, we’re introducing Sunsetting!!” Leaving players going “what the hell? All this time grinding and it was all for NOTHING?!!” Now the whole who spent not only that $160 bucks on everything up to Forsaken now add what I spent for Shadowkeep/Annual Pass to that, Bungie again comes by with their open hand going *SLAP!!* we’re Vaulting all the Content you paid for!!” Leaving players go “what the hell we spent all this money and it was all for NOTHING?!!” Bungie’s decisions are driving more and more people away from this Game (I’m one of the thousands of players who feel just as I do on Bungie’s Decisions for the direction of Destiny. You can point to the players base numbers all you want, but that doesn’t tell anyone anything. People could just be logging on for 2 seconds then leaving and not playing. I think the D2 Player Base Numbers are as inflamed as the 200,000 Covid Deaths totals. I find both to be BS. Now before you go saying “wElL aLL vIdEo gAmEs aRe a wAsTe oF tImE.” Yes that my be true. But there is a HUGE and I mean HUGE difference in Productivity and Unproductive wastes of time. Example of this is this. Game with Productive Waste of Time. The Borderlands Games are a productive grind. The Weapons you get never get Sunset and the Content never gets removed so when you spend money you keep what you pay for regardless if whether or not you never play it again, (but some people do cause they have 3 other characters to take them through. So your time and money investments are respected and the hamster wheel eventually ends. Destiny is a game with Unproductive Grind, where you are on an endless hamster wheel going no where cause in the end, Gear and Weapons get removed making you do it all over again. And Content gets removed after spending so much money on Content that is taken from you and that is an unproductive waste of time and money. I’m hoping Outriders is much like BL where my grind and money investments are respected and is productive Even Marvel’s Avengers is productive grind.

Who the hell spent 100$ for the base game? I spent 40.

https://youtu.be/bajI1oGPhog Like I said. There are rules to how these games work, and consequences when you don’t pay attention. Blizzard figured these rules out. Which is why Loot 2.0 is the loot system that every other one is compared to. It is the industry Gold Standard. But Bungie insisted on doing their own thing rather than learning from the experts. As a result Bungie wasted five years trying to reinvent the wheel, and having to prove to themselves the truth of what the team leader for Reaper of Souls was able to clearly explain in under an hour. This game will NEVER be healthy and NEVER survive until it abides by the rules laid out in this talk. Because EVERY successful loot game abides by them. And breaking those rules to keep the business of a minority of players that want something that isn’t part of the power-fantasy of Destiny and isnt part of the reward loop that loot games run on is a Fool’s Errand. Oh, and Gearbox follows the same rules. Always has. Everytime they raise the level cap of one of their games with a DLC, the sunset the earlier gear you’ve earned. They just don’t call attention to it.

[quote]https://youtu.be/bajI1oGPhog Like I said. There are rules to how these games work, and consequences when you don’t pay attention. Blizzard figured these rules out. Which is why Loot 2.0 is the loot system that every other one is compared to. It is the industry Gold Standard. But Bungie insisted on doing their own thing rather than learning from the experts. As a result Bungie wasted five years trying to reinvent the wheel, and having to prove to themselves the truth of what the team leader for Reaper of Souls was able to clearly explain in under an hour. This game will NEVER be healthy and NEVER survive until it abides by the rules laid out in this talk. Because EVERY successful loot game abides by them. And breaking those rules to keep the business of a minority of players that want something that isn’t part of the power-fantasy of Destiny and isnt part of the reward loop that loot games run on is a Fool’s Errand. [quote]Oh, and Gearbox follows the same rules. Always has. Everytime they raise the level cap of one of their games with a DLC, the sunset the earlier gear you’ve earned. They just don’t call attention to it.[/quote] I disagree with Borderlands Sunsetting. Just cause you have to regrind for them to meet the new Level Cap, doesn’t mean the Gun is Sunset. It just means you gotta regrind to get the level 60 Weapons you have to get the level 65 mayhem 10 versions. I wouldn’t call that Sunsetting, I’d call it Reissuing if you really want to call it anything, but I wouldn’t even call it that. But to each their own I suppose. But I agree with everything else you’ve said about Diablo 3 and Games like it. There are definitely rules for Looter Shooters to abide buy and deviating from those Rules are a disaster as Destiny has proven.

Clearly didn’t watch the lecture. And Borderlands? That’s [i]EXACTLY[/i] what Sunsetting is. It’s CAPPING the item/power level of the gear piece in your possession...and going out to grind for a new copy of it is what people are pissing and moaning about as “reissues” and “selling us back out stuff.” Every. Loot. Game. Does. This. Because. They. Have. To. Destiny 2 is a broken game. One so broken it won’t survive three more years of having people grind a game with no power to offer. Or grind a game with no way to stop power creep.

[quote]Clearly didn’t watch the lecture.[/quote] I’ve seen it before, I don’t need to watch it again.

I disagree.

It was very humanizing to see the devs understand all the ways how they failed and the way it reflected on their community.

[quote]2. This means that your console or PC has to shoulder the burden of running the game, running part of the game's networking, AND loading every in-game object you'll likely encounter into your machine's memory.[/quote] But.... they're aren't deleting [u]anything[/u] we have or want to keep. It's just made obsolete. The burden on the game programming and game hardware is expanding even more. The problem is that sunsetting is all so utterly unnecessary... If the "real" reason they are sunsetting our stuff is to force us to use something else (grind for), they already have that implemented right now. You currently can't do a high(er) level Nightfall without mods, and all of your old armor and some of the guns don't have the slots. This is the way to retire stuff... Not make everyone unhappy... I got a new set of armor for my Titan and a couple new guns that work for the Nightfall. Made Nightfall fun. This is the way to do it... not harm player experience by removing their older hard-earned guns entirely from the higher level activities.

Loot games aren’t for collectors. What you’re suggesting doesn’t solve the problem. Either weapons becom irrelevant as loot items, or you have to engage in power creep to keep them relevant. Bungie tried —-and failed—-for five years to find a way out of the box. They didn’t fail because they were lazy or uncreative. They failed because it can’t be done....and it eventually destroys the game.

I’m not a collector. It’s all about respecting my time and effort put into the few items I like - few. Collecting has to be the most boring of anything I could imagine doing in Destiny. None of the arguments I’ve seen here for Sunsetting have ever made any sense..... I believe the “real” reason for retiring our stuff isn’t what is being talked about - not by you and not by Bungie. Here’s what I think... Bungie likes the rotation of guns/gear into and out of the game because: 1- it allows them to offer a powerful xyz item, then retire it some months later once it’s served its purpose and it’s time to introduce the next big thing. Keeps people grinding. 2- A new hot item keeps the streamers streaming about new stuff. I’m ok with sunsetting now that we’ve been warned. Now... like any informed consumer decision, I can decide whether to spend any more money. I won’t.

You literally contradicted yourself in you in your first two sentences. No loot game vet talks about “respect for their time” taking the form of being able to KEEP a gear piece and endlessly level it up. Or being permanently relevant. That is how collectors, crafting gamers, and shooter gamers think. Loot game vets talk about the gear being [i]disposable.[/i] Now —-as with many other things—-Bungie fed into that mentality with things they did. But that notion that the developer has to [i]respect your grind[/i] by letting g you keep power permanently is just [i]poison[/i] to a loot game. It’s like literally feeding it cyanide, then looking confused with the game dies right before your eyes.

Liking a half dozen items does not a collector make, when there are hundreds of things available. A good hand cannon, a good shotgun, a good auto rifle, a good sniper, and a good rocket are all I need. Combat vets don’t consider that a collection, just tools for the job. Loot game... they could call it a pink canary, but it wouldn’t be one. It’s a shooter. Should I post the Deej quote about “respect”?

It's a looter shooter you dumb-blam!- it's in the -blam!-ing name.

Distinction without a difference. The point is that you’ve fallen in love with the gear in a way that is incompatible with the game’s core identity, and how it has to structure itself. And the game is not a shooter. If it were just a shooter we’d still be playing vanilla Destiny 2. Rather than Bungie still trying to overhaul the game from that design [i]catastrophe.[/i] As for DeeJs quote. Consider this. If I tell you that the Earth is Flat, are you going to accept at some point that I was simple wrong, and adjust accordingly...or just go on believing the Earth is Flat because I said it was?? [b]Bungie didn’t know WTF they were doing with RPGs back then. The tried to make up their own rules and made outlandish promises that veteran loot gamers LAUGHED at. Because we knew they were promise that they had no hope of ever making good on.[/b] And trying to hold them to those promises now will DESTROY this game.

Learning nothing from its development of the Halo franchise, Bungie is in this mess because it's trying to stretch the life of D2 (a single game) out to 6 years. So it has to sunset our hard earned stuff and vault content we already paid for. If they had not deviated from the 3-year model, none... none of this would be necessary. They could have moved on to D3 after 3 years, and D2 could have remained untouched. One of the best things about D1 is that I can go back and play the game without fear of losing what I had when D1 ended. With D2, there's a guillotine hanging over everything in the game.

What’s that? The developers know what’s better for the game rather than the players? SHOCKER.

ROFLMAO. [i]Right. You're funny. [/i] Word of advice. The **really** smart people, don't need to tell you how much smarter they are than you. Note how I answered the OPs question in detail...yet all you have in reply are insults, assertions and chest-pounding....... ....while insisting that you're smarter than a ridiculously oversimplified strawman of what I actually said.

Dude, I agree with you. I’m just mocking people who think they know what’s better for the game then the devs. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. I cut out the roast part. It didn’t read correctly.

Ah....okay. Picking up on humor in this format gets a bit dicey.... ...I get attacked so often for goign against the hive mind around here, that I tend to swing a baseball bat and ask questions later.....