[quote][When my friends played Diablo, they understand and accept that when they obtain loot, that begins a process by which they are trying to find something better than that piece of loot. [/quote] IOW, how **every** successful loot game works. [quote]When they play Borderlands, they know that farming certain gear or completing certain quests is a waste of time until they hit max level, because some items can only be obtained once, and under specific circumstances.[/quote] [b]Once again, how every loot game works[/b]. Which is why I said you either get to keep your stuff....or you get to have progression. NOT BOTH. [quote]In Dark Souls, [/quote] Dark Souls isn't a loot game...so you can throw that out as irrelevant to this discussion. [quote]3 different types of loot games, all of which have a gear progression system that provides incentive for the PLAYER to constantly be on the hunt for new gear.[/quote] That's called "loot incentive" or "loot drive"...and every succesful game structures itself in a way to PROTECT that need to chase after loot. INFUSION BREAKS THIS LOOT INCENTIVE. Which is why I said---five YEARS AGO---that what Bungie was trying to do with infusion was doomed to failure. ...and lo and behold...Bungie has finally admitted that its failed as a game design feature, and they need to CAP infusion (sunset). [quote]DESTINY DOES NOT HAVE ANY OF THAT.[/quote] Because Bungie insists on doing things THEIR way....and wasted FIVE years trying to REINVENT THE WHEEL. They tried to establish a gear system with capped item levels. back in Y1 D1. But shooter gamers complained and pushed back. But instead of EDUCATING the player base as to why this was necessary, BUNGIE CAVED. They caved....added infusion to the game to let those shooter gamers keep their stuff and keep it "evergreen".... [b]...and the game has been "broken" as a loot game ever since. [/b] Only now, Bungie is trying to finally get around to doing what it should have done five years ago to actually FIX the game and make it work properly. The problem is YOU WILL NEVER CREATE this system in this game WITHOUT sunsetting. Because---for the 100th time----if you don't sunset you will either STRANGLE the very loot drive you keep alluding to or you will put runaway power creep into the game. As either the game descends into an endless series of SIDEGRADES where nothing is better than what you currently have (which is where we are now)...OR Bungie has to keep making stuff stronger and stronger and stronger in order for tthe new stuff to be relevant and get us to use it (which is where we were last year...and in Y1 of D1 with the VoG raid weapons.) [quote]How do you explain that they can get high stat armor, after they find out that the armor that they hunted for is going to be useless and there is currently nothing better or even equivalent for them to chase?[/quote] [b]Because the latter simply isn't true. [/b] It isn't going to be USELESS....you just can't use it in certain end-game activities. You're free to use it anywhere else. It is also not true....for the 100th time....becauuse ONCE YOU HAVE A MEANS TO RELIABLY RETIRE POWER FROM THE GAME THE DEVELOPERS ARE FREE TO GIVE THE PLAYER MORE POWER BECAUSE NOTHING IS A PERMANENT ADDITION TO THE SANDBOX. IOW, a weapon like Recluse stops being a problem when its power level is capped. As the game progresses it rotates out of relevance, and is sunset. So its power goes along with it. That power can then be given BACK to the player in some other part of the game without the TOTAL player power level running amok. But in the current system, EVERY WEAPON that gets added to the game is a permanent addition...and can show up anywhere at anytime at any power level. So---because of infusion----that same weapon can be breaking encounters FIVE YEARS from now because of infusion. Or worse, Bungie has to make an SMG that is even MORE OP and broken in order to get you to put it down. Which is why Bungie had to nerf have the -blam!-ING armory into the ground last year to rein in power creep....and create space for power to be given to armor and to its mods. [quote]My post is asking how I explain to the regular players like my friends who realize that there is no point in spending 2 hours in a dungeon for gear that is NO better than the shit they already have, or can get just roaming the world.[/quote] You tell them what EVERY loot game vet UNDERSTANDS. THAT THE FUN OF THE GAME IS IN THE CHASE AND NOT IN THE ***HAVING***. ...AND IF YOU DON'T ENJOY THE CHASE THEN **DON'T**. ***DO***. ***IT***. You dont' need a perfectly min-maxed set of gear to enjoy the game or be successful at it. You don't need god rolled weapons or armor to enjoy the game and be successful at it. You go after those things because you enjoy the process of squeezing every last bit of efficiency out fo a character, and in finding/leveraging synergies that allow you to experience the game in a fresh way. YOU DO IT FOR FUN. NOT BECAUSE THE GEAR HAS ANY LASTING VALUE. THEY ARE VIRTUAL TOYS IN A VIRTUAL TOYBOX...ON A VIRTUAL ***PLAYGROUND***. What you are doing is LITERALLY the video game equivalent of asking why people go to the gym and run on treadmills. Since they aren't actually GOING anywhere when they do it. Answer is they do it for fun, and they do it for the exercise. Bacause that----rather than actually getting from one place to another---is where the real value is.