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6/5/2020 7:22:58 PM
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작성자: Soular_Sage 6/5/2020 7:53:53 PMOP mentioned that recluse shouldn't be the meta in Y6 or 7, which I agree with. Sunsetting recluse doesn't preclude it from being meta in strikes, crucible (less so since they.... wait for it... nerfed it), and all raids other than GoS. Sure, it'll be too low in power to use in Trials, Gambit, and GoS... but that's about it. What you should be asking yourself is... Instead of nerfing/rewroking one weapon (to make it less power, not handicapped) in all activities, you'd rather make dozens of weapons irrelevant in the end-game meta but leave that [i]one[/i] weapon [b]broken[/b] in the rest of the game?
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[quote]Sure, it'll be too low in power to use in Trials, Gambit, and GoS... but that's about it. [/quote] That’s not it actually. GoS won’t have a level change unless an additional difficulty is added, so it will be fine there. We receive new activities with each content release. It will not be viable in next years campaign or any of the content added with the next dlc. Same goes for all future annual and seasonal content drops.
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작성자: Bore 6/5/2020 7:25:08 PM[quote]So just nerf/rework recluse o.0. Other games do that ALL the darn time.[/quote] Other games also retire loot all the time. Why destroy a weapons usability in all activities when you could prevent it from being viable in new activities only. If they were to nerf recluse, another old gun would take its place. Retirement is about making the new loot valuable for the new activities rather than old loot being used in all activities.
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작성자: Soular_Sage 6/5/2020 7:56:07 PMMost FPS games don't, and true MMO's do not sunset the core combat mechanic of their game, [i]character abilities[/I]. Weapons are Destiny's core combat mechanic. They're the principal way we engage with the game, subclasses are cherries on top. 9/10 your weapon loadout is more significant than the subclass you pick, so that's not a good comparison. Think, what would you replace recluse with? I challenge you to offer an option that was/is as problematic as recluse is. Bungie couldn't release any SMGs more powerful than recluse because they designed themselves into a corner. Recluse is a stat monster, with perks that fundamentally break the game.
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[quote]Most FPS games don't, and true MMO's do not sunset the core combat mechanic of their game, [i]character abilities[/I]. Weapons are the principal way we engage with the game. 9/10 your weapon loadout is more significant than the subclass you pick. Oh, what would replace recluse? I challenge you to offer an option that was/is as problematic as recluse is. Bungie couldn't release any SMGs more powerful than recluse because they designed themselves into a corner. Recluse is a stat monster, with perks that fundamentally break the game.[/quote] Recluse isn’t any stronger than other primaries in pve anymore. They nerfed it’s damage perk to be at the level of other damage perks. It’s only the most used(75%) because it was once the best and is still good(Damage perk X + Reload perk Y). People don’t see the need to grind for anything else when it’s not going to be better, just on par. There’s no reason at present to get the new weapons and therefore no reason for new weapons to be added. Sunsetting fixes that. There will be a reason to get new weapons for the new activities released along side them, rather than using weapons from previous activities. Look at other loot games that are almost similar to destiny. Borderland’s system of retirement is far more cruel than Destiny’s. In order to keep players grinding for weapons, the level cap goes up and weapons you’ve already obtained are left behind, stick at the level you obtained them at. If the game is going to last til year 7, you need reasons for loot to exist and reasons for players to chase said loot.
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Also, recluse is still more valuable than most non-exotic SMGs because it has the best stats, reload perk and the most versatile damage perk. <-- again, a fundamental issue in weapon design. I challenged you to name the replacement for it. If, any weapon with damage perk x + reload perk Y is your answer, then your problem is with damage perk x and reload perk y... both of which are being address without sunsetting.
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작성자: Bore 6/5/2020 8:34:23 PM[quote]Also, recluse is still more valuable than most non-exotic SMGs because it has the best stats, reload perk and the most versatile damage perk. <-- again, a fundamental issue in weapon design.[/quote] The damage perk is less effective than rampage actually. A rampage 2x will do more damage. Other smgs am can get feeding frenzy too. [quote] I challenged you to name the replacement for it. If, any weapon with damage perk x + reload perk Y is your answer, then your problem is with damage perk x and reload perk y... both of which are being address without sunsetting.[/quote] Reloads perks are receiving a small nerf, however most weapons have a reload stat higher than 50 and won’t be affected by the nerf. Damage perks received a nerf a year ago and aren’t receiving another. Reload and Andre perks will still be what people seek on weapons, which is why they’re not together on most of the new weapons. If you believe that recluse being nerfed will mean that there won’t be a slot used weapon in pve that replaces it, you must be new to destiny. There’s always a most used weapon. Rather than nerf that weapon, it’ll get retired after a year and will remain viable in old activities.
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Borderlands has tiered difficulties though. In the end game, you can literally grind out a max level variant of a weapon that drops from the beginning of the game. So, while your weapon might not be viable past a certain point in your first playthrough, you can always get a better version in your second play though, then a [b]permanently[/b] usable version in the hardest of content. This can happen because your level isn't tied to your gear. A weapon is never [i]truly[/i] sunset at any level of play. Ultimately, your build governs what weapons you use... not the weapons themselves. The difference... Borderlands does a darn good job at fundamentally getting the design of the game right. There are numerous good options and alternatives to play with, which reduces the average individual's attachment to any one specific weapon [i]without[/i] artificially punishing them for being attached to a specific weapon. Destiny on the other hand does not offer the depth of customization that [i]most[/I] looter shooters and MMOs offer. So what happens? We get attached to a limited number of weapons, esp game breaking ones. (I personally have never been attached to outright broken weapons that trivialize gameplay). [b]Bungie is not going to be able to get around the fact that they [i]cannot[/I] make this game better without dedicating time to fix fundamental issues in weapon diversity. [/b] Weapon retirement, if implemented now, will only serve to hurt player investment. [spoiler]There are exceptions though... DPUH (Double Penetrating Unkempt Harold) in BL2 was a weapon that dominated the end-game. But, other weapons were still viable, strong, and offered more build synergy than DPUH.[/spoiler]
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Respond to the main point of my last response rather than the example I gave. Destiny and borderlands both have a type of loot retirement. Different games need different systems. Comparing them doesn’t change the fact that destiny is getting a needed change.
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작성자: Soular_Sage 6/5/2020 8:59:37 PM[quote]Respond to the main point of my last response rather than the example I gave. Destiny and borderlands both have a type of loot retirement. Different games need different systems. Comparing them doesn’t change the fact that destiny is getting a needed change.[/quote] I think Destiny's issue is, again, in the game design. the only thing that matters in FPS's (both examples) is damage, how fast you can dish out that damage, and how easily you can dish out that damage. D2 doesn't really have interesting mechanics on the enemy end to mitigate that damage or tools on the player end to overcome those barriers. All we do is shoot stuff, reload, and shoot more stuff. To be fair, Bungie's taken a few steps to increase the complexity of end-game combat by way of Champions, but that's just not enough. The modding requirements (by specific weapons) is pretty restrictive, and it doesn't help that subclasses lack depth and customizable on top of that. Bungie's only alternative is to come up with new ways to add value outside of raw weapon DPS.. Take shotty's for example; they're bad in PvE because we don't have perks that mitigate the stomp mechanic, which drastically lowers the DPS of shotgun (even melees reduce the DPS). We don't need more crazy damage perks like master of arms, or silly reload perks like feeding frenzy. We need more interesting and dynamic ways to engage with the game world. Subclasses need more unique tools that matter. They, in turn, should play off our weapon perks. Elemental Capacitor is also a good, albeit small, step in that direction. Basically, reload/damage will [i]ALWAYS[/i] be valuable in an FPS... If Bungie doesn't like that we only spec for those two mechanics, then add more depth to the game before removing those option from us.
