You do understand he wasn't being influenced by the servitor we fight, but Riven right? Riven has the ability to grant wishes, it's how the scorn were created in the first place. A corrupted wish. Ahamkara powers work differently to a Taken Queens, even a Taken Ahamkara would use wishes. He basically had schizophrenia. Thinking his wish had come true without the ability to realise what the cost was. If his wish was to save Mara, Riven could grant it (by bringing Petra and the Guardians to the city), but the flip side would be he wouldn't be alive to see it. Guardians fell prey to the same Wish schemes, hence the great hunt. Sure he was a douche, sure he may not have been directly controlled by someone, but he certainly was not in control of where his life was heading. The real traitor is Variks, who started the riot and allowed the Barons and Uldren to escape.

[quote]You do understand he wasn't being influenced by the servitor we fight, but Riven right? [/quote] The monster, the Ahamkara, Riven. Yes, I know, did I say otherwise? [quote] Riven has the ability to grant wishes, it's how the scorn were created in the first place. A corrupted wish. Ahamkara powers work differently to a Taken Queens, even a Taken Ahamkara would use wishes.[/quote] Okay... again, nothing I don't know. I'm aware the Ahamkara can grant wishes, but none of that is relevant to my post. [quote]He basically had schizophrenia. Thinking his wish had come true without the ability to realise what the cost was. [/quote] He knew exactly what the cost would be. That's my point. The difference is that he didn't care what the cost was because it didn't matter to him. He only cared about Mara. Where you see that of a misguided person, I see that of a sociopath. One that is willing to do anything, uncaring of the acts or implications, if only for their own purpose or desire. And... if I remember right... being a sociopath doesn't remove you from responsibility in the face of judgement. In fact, in some places, in strengthens the verdict. [quote]If his wish was to save Mara, Riven could grant it (by bringing Petra and the Guardians to the city), but the flip side would be he wouldn't be alive to see it. Guardians fell prey to the same Wish schemes, hence the great hunt. [/quote] Uldren's goal wasn't to bring Petra and the Guardian to Riven. Had we died to the Fanatic or any of the other Barrens that would have worked out for him just fine. Riven, never once, needed us. Riven wanted to be set free, and needed a shard of the traveler to do it, all the while in the guise of Mara. With Awoken Darkness, and Traveler Light, the seal could be broken. That was all, and only ever, what Uldren strove to acquire. Uldren even says to the fanatic to 'avenge his murdered friends'. IE, kill us. The other thing is that, clearly, the Ahamkara could not reveal itself to Uldren. It HAD to appear to be Mara in order to convince Uldren to follow his path. To simply say 'Riven promised and Uldren believed' completely ignores the fact that Riven had to go to great lengths of deception to make him believe it was Mara, herself, talking to him. You could argue that this was preference by the Ahamkara. But... it is also clear that the Ahamkara, at points, grew frustrated with Uldren's hesitation. If the Ahamkara knew it could simply 'offer' Mara as a wish, for in turn more complete control, then surely it would have done so. If what you say is true, the Uldren would have merely followed the voice in the first place. He also would have done so more willingly, and without prodding and poking of Mara's words. The guardians fell to the wish scheme due to not knowing the price of wishes. Uldren is not the same. Had he known it wasn't Mara... he might not have fallen to the temptation of the Riven. If he was to believe Riven, then why wouldn't Riven simply make the offer? Your explanation is too simple in this regard. [quote]Sure he was a douche, sure he may not have been directly controlled by someone, but he certainly was not in control of where his life was heading. [/quote] No one is in absolute control of their life completely, and some way less than others (Uldren). However, Uldren could have stopped at some point, at any point, and care about the actions he did to his people. He may not have been redeemable, but he ALWAYS had the choice of not going further. But he didn't care. And thus, is not saved by any form of mercy. [quote]The real traitor is Variks, who started the riot and allowed the Barons and Uldren to escape.[/quote] Perhaps, but what is loyality? Variks was always loyal to the Fallen, to bringing them out of their dark age. The Awoken did not have this in mind, and for good reason. If Variks stayed where he was, he would not have had a chance to rally the Fallen to a new banner, which is what he's trying to do. And, in the end, Variks was also only ever loyal to two people. Uldren and Mara, under the Awoken wing. He did one last service to them both (in a sense) while in the act of making his own path. Loyalties can't always stay the same. What doesn't change... dies.

[quote]Uldren's goal wasn't to bring Petra and the Guardian to Riven. Had we died to the Fanatic or any of the other Barrens that would have worked out for him just fine. Riven, never once, needed us. Riven wanted to be set free, and needed a shard of the traveler to do it, all the while in the guise of Mara. With Awoken Darkness, and Traveler Light, the seal could be broken. That was all, and only ever, what Uldren strove to acquire. Uldren even says to the fanatic to 'avenge his murdered friends'. IE, kill us. The other thing is that, clearly, the Ahamkara could not reveal itself to Uldren. It HAD to appear to be Mara in order to convince Uldren to follow his path. To simply say 'Riven promised and Uldren believed' completely ignores the fact that Riven had to go to great lengths of deception to make him believe it was Mara, herself, talking to him. You could argue that this was preference by the Ahamkara. But... it is also clear that the Ahamkara, at points, grew frustrated with Uldren's hesitation. If the Ahamkara knew it could simply 'offer' Mara as a wish, for in turn more complete control, then surely it would have done so. If what you say is true, the Uldren would have merely followed the voice in the first place. He also would have done so more willingly, and without prodding and poking of Mara's words. The guardians fell to the wish scheme due to not knowing the price of wishes. Uldren is not the same. Had he known it wasn't Mara... he might not have fallen to the temptation of the Riven. If he was to believe Riven, then why wouldn't Riven simply make the offer? Your explanation is too simple in this regard.[/quote] You're right, Uldrens goal was to save Mara, the Ahamkara can sense what you want and make it happen. How was Riven able to grant the wish (but let it also be a curse)? To save Mara, but in doing so he would lose his life and allow the Taken into the City. In order to manifest nothing into something, they require the will of someone else. The wish of someone else. So yes Riven needed to satisfy Uldrens wish in order to also carry out the curse. For example, the Scorn were created from Uldrens wish to save the Fallen Fikrul. Who became the Fanatic and called him Father because he believed Uldren was the one who resurrected him and gave him his powers. But we know that with the ability to resurrect, their ether was also corrupted by the darkness and made them psychotic. The Wish was granted, but it came with a curse. Sure he could've stopped at any point technically. But Guardians were never able to, even going to the point of killing each other while being influenced by an Ahamkara. The exotic armour we wear still causes hallucinations and urges us to go and kill. It's just ok for us since we aren't the "bad guys". He knew Mara was still alive and thought that was what she wanted. Petra or any of the other Awoken would've done the same thing imo. Just my opinion anyway :P

[quote]You're right, Uldrens goal was to save Mara, the Ahamkara can sense what you want and make it happen. How was Riven able to grant the wish (but let it also be a curse)? To save Mara, but in doing so he would lose his life and allow the Taken into the City. [/quote] You're assuming that Ahamkara are truthful or don't 'twist' a wish. For instance, a person could wish for 'peace on Earth'. Well... since 'war' and 'peace' are determined by human factors, it would bring 'peace on Earth' to simply exterminate all the humans. Thus, wish granted. However, twisted. To assume that the Ahamkara, even if it WAS intending on granting the wish, would not do this is to be way too trusting. [quote]In order to manifest nothing into something, they require the will of someone else. The wish of someone else. So yes Riven needed to satisfy Uldrens wish in order to also carry out the curse. [/quote] This is never stated. And Riven was quite clearly going to kill Uldren BEFORE he ever got his wish. Again, Riven calls Uldren a fool. A tool to a plan, and not the granter of a fortune. A child's puppet, a pawn on the board. You act as if the Ahamkara are honor bound to their 'offers'. This not the case. [quote]For example, the Scorn were created from Uldrens wish to save the Fallen Fikrul. Who became the Fanatic and called him Father because he believed Uldren was the one who resurrected him and gave him his powers. But we know that with the ability to resurrect, their ether was also corrupted by the darkness and made them psychotic. The Wish was granted, but it came with a curse. [/quote] Except Uldren does not know Riven exists. He is following MARA the whole time. He believes it is Mara. He is lead to know it is Mara. He does it all for her. If your logic is true, then WHY does Riven appear as Mara? It makes no sense. If Riven could simply promise 'Mara as a gift' then surely Uldren would simply follow, without restraint or hesitaion, right? So why the deception? Why the cloaks and daggers? Why not simply offer the wish? Because it can't, or won't. Either or. And your answer doesn't take that, in any capacity, into consideration. If your logic was correct, Uldren would simply follow 'the wish giver' and not need to be bend to the will of his memory of Mara. He would not need to be pushed. So why is that so? That is what you should ask yourself. [quote]Sure he could've stopped at any point technically. But Guardians were never able to, even going to the point of killing each other while being influenced by an Ahamkara. The exotic armour we wear still causes hallucinations and urges us to go and kill. It's just ok for us since we aren't the "bad guys".[/quote] We don't know that individual implications of the Ahamkara, only that their prices were terrible and their influence higher than what the Vanguard wanted. Thus, they were destroyed. Again, by that logic, we should succumb to the darkness whenever we face it. We should succumb to the Vex who infects the minds of people. We should succumb to so very many 'taints and dark influences'. But... we don't. Not those who keep themselves from losing their purpose, their values. [quote] It's just ok for us since we aren't the "bad guys".[/quote] Not at all. The Iron Lords destroyed Guardians who were tyrants. The vanguard hunter down Dregdon's followers. Other things are banned or held away from eager guardians in fear of their 'improper use'. Also, when we're killing our enemies it does usually matter 'what' we use as long as we use it, use it efficently, and use it with purpose. However, guardians that go insane or actively rebel or hunt down others are quickly destroyed. If not by other guardians, than by Vanguard assets. [quote]He knew Mara was still alive and thought that was what she wanted. Petra or any of the other Awoken would've done the same thing imo. [/quote]" Petra would have killed all of her sisters, denounced her Queen's throne, and betrayed her order, and her secrets, and her military duty, if that alone brought back the Queen? For what purpose? Why bring a Queen back at the cost of literally everything (and everything the Queen stood for). And if you did... the Queen would destroy you in malice after the fact. No, there is a differnce between want... and the tunnel visioned desire of a raving sociopath.

No that's what I'm saying. The Ahamkara do twist the wishes. As they did with the Guardians. You get what you want but at a great cost. Mara is alive and well, we can even get to her throne world. And we saved her from the Ahamkara. So Uldrens wish of saving the Queen did indeed come true. Him dying before he got to see her again was also part of that twist. Uldren 100% knows Riven exists. He didn't know he was being misled by it. Riven appears as Mara because that's the thing he wants most in life. To find her. He's been driven by nothing else since her death. So the Ahamkara uses his Wish to get what She wants, and to ensure he continues along the path, appears as what he wants. "We don't know the individual implications of the Ahamkara" Well there are a number of instances where someone holding an Ahamkara bone acts in an out of character way. The story of the Warlock who acts out of character challenging the Hunter to go and hunt a Ahamkara, when he knows it will mean his death. But he does it anyway because of the voices. The bones alone made powerful guardians act impulsively and aggressively, even when they knew it was stupid. Sure they weren't mind controlled. But they were not themselves while being influenced by the Bones, the pull of a fully grown alive Riven must have been far stronger no? Literally every piece of Ahamkara armour Lore described flesh/killing/teeth. It wants us to kill while having them with us. The Vanguard hasn't banned them yet because they are effectively helping us kill our enemies. Hence it's not yet seen as a bad thing. In regards to your comments about Petra, I could say the same for Uldren, killing his own people in droves in the name of the Queen is extremely out of character. but Uldren was given a loyal army (by the Ahamkara, although I suspect Uldren thought the Queen had helped) and constantly pushed towards an objective. maybe instead of saying he was a puppet, it's more like he was on drugs? In the same way that people act completely out of character and often aggressively. It's still their actions and their choice, but there thought process is broken? Not saying he's guilt free (I still killed him in my mind haha), but had he not been influenced by the Ahamkara (which we know influence your emotions and impulse control) I don't think he would've acted the same. EDIT: Good chatting with you anyway mate :)

[quote]No that's what I'm saying. The Ahamkara do twist the wishes. As they did with the Guardians. You get what you want but at a great cost. [/quote] But no... he doesn't. He doesn't get ANYTHING that he wanted. That's my point. Again, he's a pawn. A tool. Riven had ZERO intention of actually 'giving Mara back' to Uldren. He is fooled and duped until the end, and then he'll be left with absolutely nothing, and his life destroyed. He does not get Mara back in any sense of the word. [quote] Mara is alive and well, we can even get to her throne world. And we saved her from the Ahamkara. So Uldrens wish of saving the Queen did indeed come true. Him dying before he got to see her again was also part of that twist.[/quote] We saved her from nothing. She's already fighting, has been fighting, and continues to fight just as she says to us. Nothing has changed for her in the realm of Uldren's endeavors. [quote]Uldren 100% knows Riven exists. He didn't know he was being misled by it. [/quote] Again, why mislead when Riven KNOWS that's what Uldren wants? Why not just make the offer? Why not just tease him with the wish? [quote]Riven appears as Mara because that's the thing he wants most in life. To find her. He's been driven by nothing else since her death. So the Ahamkara uses his Wish to get what She wants, and to ensure he continues along the path, appears as what he wants.[/quote] Again, but why pretend? Why decieve? Why trick? Why not just give him the offer? It doesn't make sense. If Uldren is so fanatically and unequivalically obsessed with Mara to aid undead Fallen AND destroy his own throne AND betray his people... surely one more pact wouldn't even phase him? It makes no sense in that regard. There is no point in decieving if you are the holder of a wish, and the seeker of that wish has already reounced everything to obtain it. To simply dismiss that is to go back on your own logic. If the logic is "Uldren wants Mara, Riven can grant Mara, so Uldren follows Riven..." then why decieve if it's that simple? It isn't. [quote]Well there are a number of instances where someone holding an Ahamkara bone acts in an out of character way. The story of the Warlock who acts out of character challenging the Hunter to go and hunt a Ahamkara, when he knows it will mean his death. But he does it anyway because of the voices. The bones alone made powerful guardians act impulsively and aggressively, even when they knew it was stupid.[/quote] That example had nothing to do with an Ahamkara. That was a Warlock pulling on the Hunter's pride, and regretting it. It was to show how deeply the 'roots' of a Hunter and Warlock can, in the end, work against themselves. Not to show the influence of a Ahamakara's influence. To be frank, there are direct examples of that. Only vauge stories with moral lessons. Also, the Hunter returns victorious in the end of that story. [quote]Literally every piece of Ahamkara armour Lore described flesh/killing/teeth. It wants us to kill while having them with us. The Vanguard hasn't banned them yet because they are effectively helping us kill our enemies. Hence it's not yet seen as a bad thing. [/quote] True, but that has nothing to do with the phrase "We're good guys so nothing we do is wrong." in the sense that you put it. Having artifacts that help, and help within the realm of their purpose, have ALWAYS been okay. Take Hive weaponry, for example. Or VoG waeponry. Or a plethora of other, 'Darkness borne' weapon/armor. However, to simply say "We're good guys, we do nothing wrong so everything is okay because of that." is just false, and the Vanguard have shown how relentlessly they go to prevent such Guardians from going on this path. And, of course, elminating those that do. [quote] In regards to your comments about Petra, I could say the same for Uldren, killing his own people in droves in the name of the Queen is extremely out of character. but Uldren was given a loyal army (by the Ahamkara, although I suspect Uldren thought the Queen had helped) and constantly pushed towards an objective.[/quote] My point there was to show that there's a difference between desire and being a sociopath. And why a sociopath, despite their 'good intentions', have to be put down because no 'reasonable' person (like Petra) would do such a thing. Yes, if Petra didn't care either, she could go on that path. But a test of wills would be the only way to prove the resilence. In fact... Petra warns you 'not to listen to the voices'. In a sense, who's to say she hasn't been tempted like Uldren has? It's certainly possible. [quote]maybe instead of saying he was a puppet, it's more like he was on drugs? In the same way that people act completely out of character and often aggressively. It's still their actions and their choice, but there thought process is broken?[/quote] Except he was a puppet, as Riven proclaimed. People can also act out of character when it comes to passion or desire or want. Have you ever seen ambition in a morbid sense? People who will do 'anything' for this or that? That's not a drug, that's taking value of one specific thing over the values of everything and everyone else. A sociopath. And those are, typically, not drug induced. Those are self-conscious decisions. Hence, the guilt. Hence, the verdict. [quote] Not saying he's guilt free (I still killed him in my mind haha), but had he not been influenced by the Ahamkara (which we know influence your emotions and impulse control) I don't think he would've acted the same.[/quote] Perhaps not. However, he was not controlled by Riven either. He was tempted. HE had to make the choice to follow the path he did. He even resisted several times during the story. But he believe it was Mara who was pushing him. But, again, why did he have to believe it was Mara? Surely, if it was a done deal, he would have acted more quickly, right? Your view is that he wouldn't have done such things if he wasn't affected. My view is that he wouldn't have done such things if he knew it wasn't Mara talking to him. Riven, and only Riven himself, could not persuade him if it was a direct deal. Had he known it was Riven, an Ahamkara, he would have been able to fight back. He would have stopped. He would have realized it was a lie.

[quote]That example had nothing to do with an Ahamkara. That was a Warlock pulling on the Hunter's pride, and regretting it. It was to show how deeply the 'roots' of a Hunter and Warlock can, in the end, work against themselves. Not to show the influence of a Ahamakara's influence. To be frank, there are direct examples of that. Only vauge stories with moral lessons.[/quote] https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-warlock?highlight=warlock+hunter+ahamkara I think it pretty clearly points to the Ahamkara bone being the cause.