The donkey metaphor is apt in this case...

Why can't there be different (best way I could explain it) different game rules or programming for pve and pvp. I know it's Prolly double work but you have a pve (insert weapon) version and a pvp version of the same gun that depending on the activity the game recognizes this item as a what the activity is and gives it the pvp rules or the pve rules. I hope that made sense

It does...but that is not what this game is about. What makes Destiny unique is the effort to combine both the PvP and the PvE into a seamless whole....and Bungie clearly wants players to go back and forth between the two frequently. The mechanics can be made to work. The larger problem is that the two types of game play tends to attract two very different types of games, and two very different types of personalities.

They can. It's more work on their end not ours. You can get one example (insert weapon) and depending on the activity the game gives it more or less different stats. You basically have a different set of code for each activity. Idk I'm not a programmer so idk how else to explain it or if they can do it

You already have that. The tweaks that Bungie is making right now isn't so much about PvP versus PvE...its about making the various weapons more distinct from one another. Especially in terms of their effective ranges. Case point. On Shores of Time, there is a popular spot behind Control Point C where snipers like to set up shop, because it lets them control all the major approaches from A to C...and From B to C. So in a good Crucible match sniper duels will break out as the two teams fight for control of that spot. The only problem is that those duels aren't always fought with sniper RIFLES. When setting up shop back there, I've taken serious harrassment fire from Suros Regime (as well as some of the other really long-range ARs), as well as from Hawkmoon and Thorn. I've even returned fire from that spot using Thorn, and it was effective enough to send the guy over at B (who also had a hand cannon) scurrying for cover. THIS is what Bungie is trying to put a stop to. Firefights breaking out with ARs and Hand Cannons that should be fought with scout rifles and sniper rifles.

Right but all that has nothing to do with pve. What I'm saying is change the guns in pvp and don't do anything to them in pve.

They never should have tied our tails together in the first place ;-)

It's what makes Destiny unique.

Lol, I don't know how to break it to you, but the only thing that is unique about destiny (at least on consuls, if you include PC there really isn't anything unique about Destiny) is the PvE, not the painfully generic PvP. That is what makes this whole situation so puzzling. The game was sold as the ultimate MMO-esq PvE experience on consuls, but then in practice it became clear that Bungie only cared about PvP to begin with.

1. What is new is the BLENDING of the elements that make up this game. Not the elements themselves. 2. it was not sold as the "ultimate MMO experience". It was sold as a blending of MMO-RPG and FPS elements into a single game. 3. Bungie has done a great deal to improve the PvE play experience. It just that many PvE players----especially raiders----think that ALL of Bungie's efforts should be towards satisfying THEM. So they resent ANY energy shown towards improving the play expereince of other aspects of the game.

Besides patching raid/strike exploits, I couldn't really tell you anything Bungie has done to improve the PvE experience. Currently all they do is nerf weapons to satisfy PvP players, which generally has a pretty negative effect on PvE. Shotguns are already tough to use in PvE, strictly because of PvP and are now likely to be harder to use (once again because of PvP). The few interesting weapon types they have made are so watered down to protect PvP balance, that they range from useless to mediocre in PvE (I'm looking at you Thorn and NLB). There really is no BLENDING of elements though. What you do in PvP is separate and inconsequential to PvE and what you do in PvE is separate and mostly inconsequential to PvP (you do have more chances for good loot in PvE). Alot of this game was set up with PvP balance in mind like: Antiquated 3 weapon system Watered down abilities and exotics Lack of variety in weapons It was sold as a MMO-RPG and FPS hybrid, but nothing was said along the lines of 'we are looking to make CoD in space and there may be some RPG elements', the message was more like 'we are looking to make fallout/borderlands in space with raids and strikes, space magic and coop... oh and there will be PvP'.

Typical. 1. Patched raid exploits. 2. IN the process of re-developing the Queen's Wrath event. 3. Added Fireteam chat. 4. Added the ability to purchase upgrade mats for either crucible or vanguard marks so less farming was necessary. 5. Added Engrams to the daily heroic mission. 6. Added Upgrade mats as rewards for the planetary patrol bounties, and the Daily Heroic 7. Are adding matchmaking to the Weekly Heroic Strike (Yayyyy!!) 8. Increased the Mythoclast attack rating, after PvE players complained that the PvP nerf ruined the weapon. 9. Will be adding the ability to check various faction ranks without having to return to the Tower. 10. Roc strike playlist frequently drops legendary engrams and gives legendary rewards, and has a chance to drop exotics. Pvp and PvE is not seperate. They are only seperate if you choose NOT to play half the game. I haven't been able to really raid since TDB dropped....and I was able to get the armor my primary character needed to reach level 32 in this weeks Iron Banner. I also picked up what will likely prove to be two VERY good legendary weapons that are the equal of the raid set weapons for general PvE play (Radegast's Fury reforged to have tracking, and Gheleon's Demise) I had a very smooth progression to IB rank 5 with my Warlock because I went "all-in" with a close quarters's build with gear that I picked up from PvE play. Monte Carlo (Nightfall reward) and Claws of Ahamkara (purchased from Xur). With two grenades and two scorch attacks and an exotic primary that kept the melee attacks continually charged.....players who tried to rush me in the Crucible seldom survived the attempt. There just are no "God Guns" in Destiny...and I think that the game is better off with there not being any. Weapons like the Mythoclast, Pocket Infinity, Suros Regime, etc.... were laughably broken when they first landed, and needed to be nerfed. The way the weapons will likely end up will be close to perfect for PvE. Pulse Rifles will finally cease to be a bad joke...and you'll have to put some THOUGHT into what weapons you take into a fight. Instead of just having one loadout that can clear the field in any situation.

PvP is not half the game, it's filler content to cover for the lack of regular content.

No. It was clearly designed to be an intergral part of the game. Now whether or not you wish to participate in that half of the game.....or not do so and complain about the game being "too small"...is your choice.

You definitely gave some good examples, but there are other examples you gave that more demonstrate my point, not refute it. It has been 5 months since the queen's wrath and Bungie has given no indication as to when/if they plan on fixing it. It took 5 months to fix an ammo glitch that only effects PvE players. When a gun (like the vex) is deemed OP in crucible, it is nerfed in days. It wasn't buffed again for months and only right before it became obsolete. Iron banner was out again a month (or two?) later. [quote]9. Will be adding the ability to check various faction ranks without having to return to the Tower [/quote] This is a nice touch, but PvE players weren't exactly clamoring to check faction rep (faction rep that only helps you buy weapons if you play PvP by the way) [quote]10. Roc strike playlist frequently drops legendary engrams and gives legendary rewards, and has a chance to drop exotics. [/quote] I'm not sure what your definition of 'frequently' is, but I've done many roc strikes and have never received a legendary (unless ships count). [quote]7. Are adding matchmaking to the Weekly Heroic Strike (Yayyyy!!) [/quote] I'm both happy and sad about this. Happy because less and less people are coming on, so I won't have to worry as much about recruiting friends to do nightfall/weekly and sad because I can no longer glimmer farm the weekly heroic if a burn modifier is on. [quote]Weapons like the Mythoclast, Pocket Infinity, Suros Regime, etc.... were laughably broken when they first landed [/quote] In PvP, I think you mean. The Mythoclast was strong in PvE, but not brokenly strong. The Pocket Infinity was strong in PvE, but since there is limited ammo in PvE, it was not brokenly strong. The Suros wasn't broken either and all of these got nerfed due to PvP, so I don't think this helps your argument as much as hurt it. [quote]Pulse Rifles will finally cease to be a bad joke [/quote] I'll have to wait and see about this. The problems with the pulse rifle are a lot deeper then just low impact/damage. The 10% buff might be enough to make them more viable weapons, but to be honest I have my doubts. [quote] Instead of just having one loadout that can clear the field in any situation [/quote] I actually use every different weapon type and a different class on every character. I rarely use the OP weapons like G-horn or Ice breaker. I say these things having used almost every weapon in the game (almost every exotic at least). Weapons do need to be diverse enough to use them in almost every situation, or there is no point in equipping them. That is one of the reasons the shotgun is used so little in PvE, you have to be kissing the enemy to do any damage, which makes it very situational. Since you can't freely switch between weapons in this game (at least more than the 3 you have equipped), you generally won't equip a weapon if it is not useful in many situations. I believe you are also a fan of analogies, so how about this one. If Destiny was a meal at a fancy restaurant, The raid would be a $50 steak. strikes would be a nice baked potato. The story would be soggy vegetables that have been sitting under a heat lamp all day. PvP would be ketchup. Something that some people enjoy, but isn't really a core part of the experience. The problem is that Chef Bungie took ketchup and poured it all over the entire meal. One issue with ketchup is that anything that has ketchup on it ends up tasting like ketchup. So it is a very small portion of the meal, but it is flavoring the whole thing in a why I (typical PvE player) don't like. All I'm asking is that the ketchup just come in a little dish on the side and I can choose whether to use it or not.

1. The only PvP that I play is during Iron Banner....but I get most of my weapons as a result of Vanguard/faction rewards. So the new feature is welcomed in my game. 2. Have you ever tried to track down a BUG in code? Do you even realize what a BUG is? Its an unintended consequence of the way a computer program is written. Because they are unintended consequences, they can be almost ANYWHERE in the millions of lines of code. So first you have FIND the bug. Then you have to find the code that is responsible for creating it. You then have to re-write the code to do what it was supposed to do and NOT create the bug. Finally you have to TEST the new code to make sure that it doesn't break anything ELSE. I could go point by point here....but that would be a wast of both our times. So I'll get to the heart of the matter here. 1. Bungie has limited resources to apply to supporting and updating this game. Everything they do has to be done across FOUR different console platforms with FOUR different operating systems. 2. I'm with Datto Does Destiny on this one: [i] The player community has a responsibility here too. If you want Bungie to be more responsive and have a shorter turn around time in providing us the things we want in the game....then we have a responsibility to STOP FINDING WAYS TO BREAK THE GAME. So that they don't have to waste limited man-hour resources try to repair the damage caused by the vast array of CHEATS that spring up whenever a raid drops. [/i] Because the more resources they have to expend to PRESERVE the integrity of the core gaming experience from those who wish to cheat it....the less they have to dedicating to trying to improve it.

90% of the fixes they do for a raid is that they put up an invisible wall. I wouldn't at all say that they are wasting all their time and resources in order to fix raid exploits. Maybe in this convo I have made my opinions seem stronger then they are, but isn't that half the fun of internet debates. On a side note though, don't defend Bungie on 'lack of resources' argument. They made over 500 million dollars when this game launched. That gives us gamers the right to demand a product that works as advertised. Just because Bungie/Activision takes that money and blows an ungodly amount of it on advertising, doesn't mean that we can expect less from them as a result. Advertising is done for the benefit of the companies, not the consumers.

...and most of that money went to pay back the debt they ran up in the process of retooling the company (literally from the ground up) in order to make Destiny. When Bungie left Microsofts orbit. All it had was a company that knew how to make one game....on one console platform...using what was dated software and development tools. By the time Destiny was released. Bungie had become a company that was producing games on FOUR consoles, with several hundred MORE employees, using compeltely software and development tools that devloped in-house...from scratch. TLDR: If Destiny had come out and FLOPPED....Bungie probably would have gone under. But that the nature of business. You need to be willing to risk big---and possibly fail big----in order to win big.

I don't think you need a TLDR: for 4 sentences. I agree, if Destiny failed and the game flopped they would have gone under. The game didn't flop though, it was a massive massive commercial success. If you believe in 'the ends justifying the means' and that misrepresenting the game and surviving is better than only making promises they could deliver on and not having a destiny, then I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinions. I think that now they've made back their money, they should be investing enough into the game to make it the best experience. Maybe this is the hand of activition (Sauron?) going... "no no... you have everything paid for it and so now you do as little as possible to make pure profit on DLC and hope there is enough good name left to make pure profit on Destiny 2" To be honest if they were more forth-right with their priorities and and I had read something that said 'we are looking for the ultimate PvP experience with a unique way to get loot', I probably never would have even bought the game. Even though I had enjoyed it, I've just spent enough time with it to see the poxes.

The ultimate priority of any business is to make a profit. Be happy that Bungie at least seems committed to giving us a quality product as well. Because all the things they are doing [i]cost[/i] them money since we aren't paying any sub fees.