You are totally entitled to your opinion, but I disagree an a lot. When it comes to an “objectively better story”, it’s a lot like looking at robbery statistics to convince yourself that you aren’t being robbed when it’s actually happening. I don’t care about a story framework, I care about how it actually impacts you. And for me, this season had zero effect on me other than making me roll my eyes constantly. I actually enjoyed curse of Osiris other than it being a very short expansion. The story made sense and people made logical choices all throughout. Saint 14 was never supposed to be this soft. And I disagree that he was supposed to deal with this struggle years ago, he shouldn’t have even cared, he’s supposed to be the pinnacle of toughness. Why would he care if he’s from a different timeline? Even in my own life, if I found out I was from a different timeline it would make literally zero difference whatsoever. I feel like the writers created drama where there just wasn’t any. As far as Zavala, he spent the last few years and 90% of the final shape being mopey and sad, then in the one cutscene they show him flying towards the enemy. But that’s really it. I blame season of the haunted for a lot of the emotional nonsense. You mean to tell me not ONE of the characters had the emotional intelligence to say, yeah… none of this is real, I’ve already self reflected on this, try harder Calus. Lol it’s stuff like this that drives me up the wall. Also I never said that Maya wasn’t always gay, but the amount of gay characters in this game makes me roll my eyes. I’ve never had a problem with gay people or characters, but my lord, half of the characters in this game are gay/trans/non binary, or just really emasculated. In comparison to other games I mentioned, it’s just another reason I roll my eyes too often. They added Rohan and immediately killed him off, they did absolutely nothing with the drifter in the final expansion when he was supposed to be a big role in lore. I’ll give it to them though, they finally graduated crow from a baby deer to a young adult. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not direction my frustration at you, again I’m glad to have a discussion with opposing viewpoints. I really wish we could all see what the original story was before they scrapped it. I’d love to compare the two.

[quote]I actually enjoyed curse of Osiris other than it being a very short expansion. The story made sense and people made logical choices all throughout.[/quote] I’d tell you to revisit the expansion but it no longer exists in game. Though I find it telling it’s the only example you disagreed on. Curse of Osiris was the comedy relief of Vanilla D2 turned to a painful extreme. To the point Brother Vance and by extension the entire Cult of Osiris were turned from mysterious agents of an absent Warlock legend into delusional fans who Osiris actively attempted to correct before he disappeared into the Infinite Forest. [quote]Saint 14 was never supposed to be this soft.[/quote] My Brother in Christ the man wears strips of fabric from everyone he’s ever saved and during Season of the Dawn was on the verge of giving up when we traveled back to meet him on Zephyr Station. He is that soft. [quote]And I disagree that he was supposed to deal with this struggle years ago[/quote] Not what I said, if he was to have this struggle it should’ve been years ago. I’m not predicating it on the assumption that this reaction is entirely justified. [quote]he shouldn’t have even cared, he’s supposed to be the pinnacle of toughness. Why would he care if he’s from a different timeline? Even in my own life, if I found out I was from a different timeline it would make literally zero difference whatsoever.[/quote] So you’d be perfectly fine leaving your wife behind and living with a near identical version of her? The thought that all of the friends and loved ones you knew now have no idea where you are or what might have happened to you? It’s not really the direction Bungie went with it, being they focused more on Saint’s insecurity over the fact, but you’re the one who claimed the revelation would have zero effect on you. [quote]As far as Zavala, he spent the last few years and 90% of the final shape being mopey and sad, then in the one cutscene they show him flying towards the enemy. But that’s really it. I blame season of the haunted for a lot of the emotional nonsense. You mean to tell me not ONE of the characters had the emotional intelligence to say, yeah… none of this is real, I’ve already self reflected on this, try harder Calus.[/quote] The Nightmares aren’t Calus projecting what he thinks these characters fear, it’s literally ripping out their deepest fears and insecurities and reflecting them back onto them with the face of a loved one. Saying “lol it ain’t real” doesn’t stop the words hurting any less. Speaking of, I think you’d find it interesting that the other Vanguard leader, Ikora, couldn’t tolerate stepping foot on the Leviathan because she couldn’t face her Nightmare. Yet Zavala had the strength of character to reflect and forgive himself, coming to peace with the death of his son. I’m sick of people arguing that because Zavala has struggled he’s somehow been reduced as a character. It’s precisely that struggle that shows his true character and makes him a Commander. Would Eris be Eris if she wasn’t reduced to a wretch crawling through the Abyss, forced to see with acolyte eyes that perpetually bleed black? Would Drifter be Drifter if we didn’t read through his collection of previous identities and see how he wasn’t quite so lucky as others in making his way through the post-Collapse era? Would Mara be Mara if we didn’t see her as a master manipulator working for the greater good of humanity only to finally realise that perhaps she wasn’t comfortable with the cost she was incurring? These characters are all flawed, it’s how they deal with those flaws that make them interesting. Look at Calus, as horrible as Lightfall is and as disappointed as I am with his send off, he’s a fantastic example of the inverse. He was faced with his own insignificance and the coming apocalypse and instead of trying to do something, warn anyone he turned into a nihilistic glutton, wasting away in his containment unit waiting for the end to come while still trying to satisfy his narcissistic need for adoration. When that end didn’t come, that need sent him into the arms of the Witness, where he sacrificed anyone still loyal to him and began surrounding himself with lobotomised clones who would obey without question. Even when his affliction was cured by the Witness, he was crowned its herald and he had reclaimed his title of Emperor he was left empty. [quote]Also I never said that Maya wasn’t always gay, but the amount of gay characters in this game makes me roll my eyes.[/quote] But how many of those have had their relationship take centre stage? This Episode is the only one where the romance has explicitly been a core part of the narrative, otherwise it’s relegated to lore or the occasional line of dialogue. Which means technically the Gays are batting 1:2, given Zavala’s wife plays a prominent role in his arc in both Haunted and Final Shape. Even the kiss that got the wrong kind of people riled up was an afterthought in the finale of another horrible season, Plunder. [quote]I really wish we could all see what the original story was before they scrapped it. I’d love to compare the two.[/quote] When you say “original story” I assume you’re talking about pre-reboot D1, in which case I’d tell you it never got this far so I hardly think it matters. This entire reply is completely yap filled, I apologise for that, but I will say I also enjoy actual constructive discussions about these topics. Because the narrative of this Episode was fundamentally flawed. I just believe it’s down to filler, waiting too long to reveal the Conductor, a lack of exploration of the Vex themselves, the Echo/Qugu and a random return to the mechanics of Saint’s return three years too late. The story had enough to be good, it was just poorly executed. It’s not a case of something like Plunder where the story they decided on was just boring at the foundational level. Edit: Speaking of Drifter, while I agree it would’ve been nice to see him play a bigger role, you’re missing the point. For his character in the lore, he’s already fulfilled his arc for the Light and Dark saga by choosing to stay and fight. That’s the payoff.

Nice points, With the drifter bit at the end, I still wish he was a bigger part of it all, considering he “saved us a spot” in his little bubble for when things went south, I just he was a main character in this expansion considering he has seen so much and has dealt with aspect of darkness that we may not have even seen yet. I gotta admit, I honestly thought we were going to use the veil to go back in time to the collapse in order to weaken the witness in the present. My nerd brain would have exploded to fight in the last city during the original collapse