the melees for Titan and warlock are so jank from the opponent perspective lol

[quote]the melees for Titan and warlock are so jank from the opponent perspective lol[/quote] 100% the games netcode makes them look like they all have ionic blink. Shiver strike is insane and it will occur to them they over buffed it when the community finally catches on to how powerful it is.

Sucks to play against both. Zero counter play for the slide melee

[quote]the melees for Titan and warlock are so jank from the opponent perspective lol[/quote] I don't like that Hunter has been reduced to wombo combo and clones. I find it super boring. Just not a fun way to play for me. That being said, if the other classes [i]understand how to leverage their abilities[/i], [b]they are extremely powerful.[/b] The skill ceiling and what you can accomplish on Warlock and Titan is significantly higher if you know how to play well. Hunter just had the easier barrier to entry cause of the jump and we dress better. Titan and Warlock can reach places faster with extremely potent abilities most players use incorrectly. They can throw away mobi for 100 resil with more health and fewer ghost bullets from flinch. This community is soft. It's the combination of what's on Prismatic Hunter that makes it so annoying. But if they nerf these abilities that aren't individually lethal, it diminishes the other classes people want the community to return to.

Did you mean subclasses or classes at in Titans and Warlocks. If you mean subclasses then not really. Smoke on void can make you invisible, threaded specter has been used ever since it came out. Swarm grenade wasn’t a problem until they added more tracking and is a very oppressive grenade. If you meant actual classes then it want diminish a single thing I don’t even know how it possibly could

[quote]Did you mean subclasses or classes at in Titans and Warlocks. If you mean subclasses then not really. Smoke on void can make you invisible, threaded specter has been used ever since it came out. Swarm grenade wasn’t a problem until they added more tracking and is a very oppressive grenade. If you meant actual classes then it want diminish a single thing I don’t even know how it possibly could[/quote] Smoke makes you invisible on void subclass with an aspect dedicated to doing it. It also takes everyone off your radar beyond 25m. It's more of a hindrance than a benefit unless you're on the edge of oblivion with a sniper or a forerunner as you still ping the enemy radar. Clones received a deserved nerf that I also called for in all of my posts. But again, isn't inherently lethal and can be avoided if you're not mindlessly ape-ing in. Swarms has reduced tracking after the recent nerf. The problem is that it scorches you so you stay low health and in tandem with smoke you can't avoid it, which I cited is brain dead, but wombos have been a thing in destiny from d1. Void subclass is a far cry from what it was. Unless it's a part of your personal identity, many other subclasses are much more desirable. Nerfing smoke repeatedly doesn't just affect prismatic, where it's the actual problem.

People don’t play void just for the smoke it’s mostly for invis and nerfing the actual smoke won’t change invis. Abilities don’t need to be lethal. The smoke and threaded specter have to much utility compared to a lot of the other abilities. Threaded specter acts can used defensive or offensively. The same with a smoke. If they start ape-ing they can just use either/or of the abilities and completely shut the ape down. The smokes can make your whole team invisible with the aspect. So again it still has a lot of utility. Nerfing it won’t make it useless. Same with threaded specter. Smoke is also a ranged melee, if you’re able to catch someone in it they have very little time to recover. Can you explain how a nerf can diminish the other classes cause I’m still not getting it

I didn't say they play just for smoke.

[quote]Abilities don’t need to be lethal. The smoke and threaded specter have to much utility compared to a lot of the other abilities. Threaded specter acts can used defensive or offensively. The same with a smoke. If they start ape-ing they can just use either/or of the abilities and completely shut the ape down. The smokes can make your whole team invisible with the aspect. So again it still has a lot of utility. Nerfing it won’t make it useless. Same with threaded specter. Smoke is also a ranged melee, if you’re able to catch someone in it they have very little time to recover. Can you explain how a nerf can diminish the other classes cause I’m still not getting it[/quote] I didn't say they need to be lethal. If they are not lethal, they tend to serve a specific purpose or are more common. Like two shuriken for slow but almost never gets the kill or cleanup themselves. If they are especially lethal, they are less common unless you build craft a style with mods, stat distribution, or specific abilities that give you 3x melee or exotics for double nades, or specific abilities to return them. I don't enjoy other people making me invisible and shoot as soon as it happens for the reasons explained above. It is designed to be a counter to the ape-ing play style. That's the point. Traps. Decoys. Snares. It isn't the automatic win OP is painting it to be stand alone. I didn't say nerfing it would make it useless, depending on the approach to the nerf in question. I said the problem with Prismatic is the braindead abilities in conjunction. I even agreed intentionally triggering it should make the smoke dissipate more quickly. By choosing to nerf these individual abilities they make the original subclass they come from even less desirable to play. [u]When that is the reverse of the desired effect[/u]. You make void class weaker. Again. Why ever go back? Unless I really need to dig into the void play style vs access to exotic class items and an easier way or playing for the masses that can't aim? People are using smoke with swarm. It's just the superior wombo and Bungie knew what they were doing when they buffed them. They wanted people to buy Final Shape. Prismatic is [i]too[/i] popular. Ideally there should be a relatively even spread on subclasses eventually. But Prismatic is easy to use and is the only class that allows you to use the exotic class items. By balancing around how that specific subclass operates and going after the abilities it shares with its original by specifically targeting abilities rather than [b]how they behave on this new subclass[/b], they potentially disrupt what was a fine balance before Final Shape arrived. So we should be balancing Prismatic and that's how the conversation should be framed. Or they should start showing people usage, effectiveness (win rates), accuracy, how long it takes for specific classes to win, how many kills come from abilities or when someone was under the affect of those abilities, and what weapons result in victory most commonly and home quickly they do it. In every game mode. On every map. But they can't, cause people rely on cheese and the meta. They tend to use what ever their favorite content creator has told them to use. Often times these are the easiest methods, not the best for your current effort. I have heard some crazy requests from the angriest and whiniest of the community. This is far from the worst, but there's less man power and money invested in this game for the foreseeable future, we should be very careful about what we say needs to be changed. Most people choosing to complain don't investigate the things they are choosing to speak about through the API. Their reaction is often subjective.

get what you’re saying but nerfing them wont steer people clear from the other subclasses since it’s not the [b]main attraction[/b]. What I think they should do is give hunters the ensnaring slam instead of threaded specter tho. I 100% agree that the smoke should dissipate if and only if you shoot it as well as reducing the radius. Swarm increase the cooldown and/or be able to shoot one pellet and they’ll all explode. The smoke got buffed to linger longer and cause damage over time. It was fine how it was before. Post buff smokes werent so oppressive during a match. If you get caught in a smoke you get slowed blinded and damaged during a gunfight. If they throw it in your only exit they you can either pray they’re slow enough to let you escape or they miss their shots since and even if you escape when hit by the smoke it’ll take longer to regenerate. Yes the swarm/smoke combo is very strong but the swarm is a grenade (Very very strong grenade) so it makes more sense the way meant to be used but a smoke grenade that’s able to damage/slow/blind and even used as a distraction seems very strong compared to how a grenade acts.

i agree with the points you made, but i do think that smoke is still a bit too strong. none of these melees have as much utility as a smoke bomb does for how easy it is to use. even an average player in platinum can make easy plays that they shouldn’t be able to just by throwing a smoke directly on top of you. by doing this, warlocks and titans become free kills because their lift/glides do not have enough initial momentum to allow you to escape after losing your double jump for a whole second. i don’t play hunter enough to know how much smoke slow affects their jump, but in general it’s just too easy to get value.

[quote]i agree with the points you made, but i do think that smoke is still a bit too strong. none of these melees have as much utility as a smoke bomb does for how easy it is to use. even an average player in platinum can make easy plays that they shouldn’t be able to just by throwing a smoke directly on top of you. by doing this, warlocks and titans become free kills because their lift/glides do not have enough initial momentum to allow you to escape after losing your double jump for a whole second. i don’t play hunter enough to know how much smoke slow affects their jump, but in general it’s just too easy to get value.[/quote] I believe smoke got buffed because void kit repeatedly got nerfed at the behest of this community. A smoke isn't inherently lethal. With swarm or follow up it's strong. It has an audio and visual cue. If people pay attention. As far as it being thrown directly on someone, If people aim their penumbral blast or shiver strike or consecration (Huge damage resist in the air and can kill multiple guardians) it's also a free kill. The uppercut for warlocks can chain kill multiple guardians and be used as movement tech. Everything has utility and potency. The grass is always greener. I'd argue if you knew how to use it, Shiver strike remains the best melee in the game. Period. Smoke is brain dead and free with swarms, sure. Something should be done about how lazy prismatic is on Hunter, with that said, people not getting the most of Warlock and Titan, it's ENTIRELY on them.

What I don’t like about the smoke is if you have a catch a hunter lacking they can just throw a smoke in your general direction and since the cloud is so large it will hit you and you will be weakened, blinded and slowed. Completely tabling the turns because of an ability which also has a short cool-down and is easy to use.

[quote]What I don’t like about the smoke is if you have a catch a hunter lacking they can just throw a smoke in your general direction and since the cloud is so large it will hit you and you will be weakened, blinded and slowed. Completely tabling the turns because of an ability which also has a short cool-down and is easy to use.[/quote] And that's completely fair of an assessment. But I don't think nerfing individual abilities because of prismatic is the way to go. Then there's less of a desire to return to the original classes that share those abilities. I also think most Titans don't appreciate how much stronger their kit is. I'm tired of seeing Hunters everywhere. Clones were dumb to pair with Wombo. Prismatic Titans are by far the most powerful thing they have ever put in the game. Other than Arc Titan meta which was just stupid. Shiver Strike got a buff. Diamond Lance is free. Knockout is still strong AF. The prismatic titan nade is a free suspension jolt. If they knee jerk over nerf Hunter while buffing Titan, it's the arc, solar, void, strand op era all over again. They will eventually nerf every one of their kits and they will whine till the servers come down.

That’s a good point. It would be quite damaging to void subclass. I think the smoke should stay as a trap tool which requires some strategy to set up and use effectively. Not just something you can spam to zone off massive areas. I also don’t like the way prismatic Titan plays. Very unfun to play against. It’s probably on the same level as prismatic hunter but prismatic hunter rewards you even if you are a literal toddler. If you are able to press 3 buttons you are golden.

[quote]That’s a good point. It would be quite damaging to void subclass. I think the smoke should stay as a trap tool which requires some strategy to set up and use effectively. Not just something you can spam to zone off massive areas. I also don’t like the way prismatic Titan plays. Very unfun to play against. It’s probably on the same level as prismatic hunter but prismatic hunter rewards you even if you are a literal toddler. If you are able to press 3 buttons you are golden.[/quote] Absolutely. Very low barrier to entry on Hunter. But Titan is so strong, most of them just use it poorly. If they over nerf Hunter, there's nothing to contend with it. Then 50% of the player base will be slighted. And that's that. All for what? Cause people wouldn't avoid a blinking beeping spot on the ground cause they just run straight at radar pings. Every class had their abilities buffed. Including Shiver Strike (best melee ever) and Diamond Lance. I don't use smoke and swarm. Find it boring AF. But yes, the pay off is nice for little effort and that's what made so many people make the switch. But in 1v1 scenarios, Titans have the strongest abilities. That's why they are on slightly longer cooldowns. They have it easier with their stat distribution. With flinch resistance. Player health. And builds properly made, they have plenty of uptime.

I think a smoke is far more than just a radar ping at this point but I hope bungie nerfs titans quickly this time. Not after months Edit: I also mostly play solar hunter

i don’t disagree that those abilities are not strong in their own right, but the uptimes of melees such as penumbral blast and shiver strike are a lot lower. i don’t think consecration is competitive at all, but even so, lightning surge and consecration require you to sacrifice an entire aspect on your subclass which smoke does not, and offers very strong utility at base. i just think it needs to be tuned down a bit, especially when shooting the smoke to detonate it. i don’t think it makes sense for me to still be zoned off of a certain area even if i did not activate the smoke and shot/detonated it instead

[quote]i don’t disagree that those abilities are not strong in their own right, but the uptimes of melees such as penumbral blast and shiver strike are a lot lower. i don’t think consecration is competitive at all, but even so, lightning surge and consecration require you to sacrifice an entire aspect on your subclass which smoke does not, and offers very strong utility at base. i just think it needs to be tuned down a bit, especially when shooting the smoke to detonate it. i don’t think it makes sense for me to still be zoned off of a certain area even if i did not activate the smoke and shot/detonated it instead[/quote] You're right, I think shooting it should make the smoke disappear extremely fast, you shouldn't be zoned out if you see and intentionally trigger the trap. With that said, with the appropriate stat distribution and builds, abilities are up often enough for Titans and Warlocks to enjoy similar levels of success in any Crucible game mode. Most people don't properly set up their kits. You're not "sacrificing" to put on those aspects if you know how to use them. They are very powerful. You not thinking they are competitive doesn't make it so. I'd like to see the data in each playlist. Everyone has a role and they excel at it. Certain play styles have inherent weaknesses and strengths. Top dawns success rate remains less then 1% the win rate of Prismatic Hunter. Most people can't use top dawn, but the ones that have mastered it are as strong as the current meta. Who is using what plays a huge role in how competitive that thing is. Both warlock and Titan have higher skill ceilings as a class.

my point is that the ease of use is not equivalent to how much value you get from the smoke bomb. you do not need to be a great player to use them, anybody who actively plays crucible can get a ton of value out of it for free. this is not the same for lightning surge and consecration. lightning surge and consecration are not really going to help you if you’re facing stacked teams that can play the game, that’s why i say they aren’t competitive. you might catch a high skilled player off guard and get a kill the first time that you use those abilities, but the risk is high risk high reward. the smoke bomb on the other hand is literally zero risk at all, especially considering that you do not need to position well, nor commit to a fight by sliding in like you do with LS and consecration. you can chuck a smoke about 30 meters and get a high reward use from it, regardless of what happens. when activated, you will know how many enemies are inside the smoke and exactly where. even if they shoot to detonate the smoke, they give a sound cue that gives you a more accurate location than radar. coupled with the fact that gambler’s dodge exists, there’s just not a good comparison to be made between smoke and LS/consec.

[quote]my point is that the ease of use is not equivalent to how much value you get from the smoke bomb. you do not need to be a great player to use them, anybody who actively plays crucible can get a ton of value out of it for free. this is not the same for lightning surge and consecration. lightning surge and consecration are not really going to help you if you’re facing stacked teams that can play the game, that’s why i say they aren’t competitive. you might catch a high skilled player off guard and get a kill the first time that you use those abilities, but the risk is high risk high reward. the smoke bomb on the other hand is literally zero risk at all, especially considering that you do not need to position well, nor commit to a fight by sliding in like you do with LS and consecration. you can chuck a smoke about 30 meters and get a high reward use from it, regardless of what happens. when activated, you will know how many enemies are inside the smoke and exactly where. even if they shoot to detonate the smoke, they give a sound cue that gives you a more accurate location than radar. coupled with the fact that gambler’s dodge exists, there’s just not a good comparison to be made between smoke and LS/consec.[/quote] Precisely. You don't need to be a great player to use them. But certain abilities have a specific threshold of what they can accomplish. Where as other abilities mastered compete at the highest level. [quote]lightning surge and consecration are not really going to help you if you’re facing stacked teams that can play the game, that’s why i say they aren’t competitive.[/quote] Based on what? Your experience. Both of these things can hold up to 3 charges on the right build and either one can get 3 kills with a single charge used properly. I have seen it consistently in Control which has skilled based MM. They are particularly effective in narrow corridors, on a point, or focused locations like heavy. You think smoke is going to help you more than these used correctly when facing a stacked team that can play the game??? If you throw a smoke from 30m, I know without a shadow of a doubt that it's smoke and I'd be dumb to activate it or be hit by it. You can scorch and jolt people to see where they are around corners too. Gamblers dodge requires proximity and has been apart of the Hunter play style since the end of D1 and has seen repeated nerfs. You're right, I shouldn't have to be comparing them because they all serve different purposes and trying to quantify their value based solely on subjective responses to their use is a silly endeavor indeed.