I don't remember what topic it was, but that's where my mind is at too. 2 lanes: A checkmate lane And a MvC lane (is the comparison I make respective the fighting game genre). Let power fantasy live there... maybe it's not "gun-centric" ... but what's wrong with that. Real talk... I don't really hype anyone, but when I see Wallah play, that's the future of PvP. Unlock the mods and the artifact, and let people figure it out. Create a legitimate CC counter system... let the game be what it wants to be 😇 👍💠.

I do think you need the 1 core philosophy no matter which lane/mode you choose in PVP (unless a special event). I bring it up because you mention an outlier Wallah. You must provide balance. You do not want steamrolls.. mercies do not show success for a side.. they show failure of balance in Destiny 2. Its obviously easier to bring this with Checkmate. The less abilities..special.. exotic.. heavy the easier to balance. Those high kd, highest kda, strategic fireteam players especially in 6v6 casual mode vs solos are horrible for the PVP community as a whole. It may be a minority.. also its certain clans that specialize in PVP.. but those outliers are def not the future of fun in PVP. They need a serious league or something.. walla is usually with fireteam.. up in a secret nests.. blah its not even something to aspire to...

You don't need it to be fully balanced... not for the MvC lane, that's my point. You DO need legitimate counters though. If we had that, it would work.

I can accept that with 2 lanes.. but you gotta try as much as possible to balance MvC? I know thats the ability stadard route but what does it stand for lol?

Sry, Mavel vs Capcom... that's the parallel I make. Back in the day MvC was fell victim to this same false purity test respective what a fighting game SHOULD be. It wasn't hyper balanced... it was over-the-top, combos were too flashy... the inputs were too loose. It could never actually be competitive and stand alongside Street Fighter or Tekken. Now it does... and both those franchises have borrowed from MvC. The greatest player in history, Justin Wong, mains the franchise... he's dominated everywhere else too. This game isn't Valorant or CS... but I do think it could be competitive and eventually stand next to them. Like MvC did, but you need to let the game be what it wants to be: Space Magic

Interesting - always like learning about gaming history - thx! But isn't that in the d2-verse best served by Mayhem? That takes it to the extreme.. a rotating ability to the max mode. Most folks just want nuanced fixes actually. One is using abilities as they had before.. and one with way less abilities.. way more tactical gunplay.

That's way overtuned... but yes, a more regulated Mayhem, with a real counter system. Some PvP specific balancing, but a much closer overlap with PvE play, tactics, and strategies. Because part if the problem is, the gap is widening... PvE keeps getting crazier, and PvP barely benefits... no stuff, and they can't even enjoy the sandbox as it's evolving.

Yeah you bring up the exact reason why I am so glad Checkmate exists. Players are trying to out PVE me.. to outbuild? me.. in PVP? Beat me with movement/gunplay/evasion.. don't beat me with a tracking freeze grenade that I cannot counter... Phew so glad Checkmate exists and hope they go further. I think the previous control mode and checkmate is all Bungie needs currently to quiet down a lot of grumbling. 6v6 casual.. for a lot of us.. is "The PVP Place" just give people both lanes stop overanalyzing Bungie.

I disagree. If all that exists is checkmate and cbmm control, PvP will die. Like gambit... I'm not routing for it. I support and have advocated for the checkmate tuning. I think a "gun centric" dueling space is good for the game.