[quote]So, what is the reasoning on how Mara Sovs reappearance makes sense.. would it make sense that Mara Sov is also the witch queen in disguise, that would explain how she reappeared suddenly, it would also explain the collecting lost techeuns as a means to seize the light.[/quote] Uh, we've met with Mara multiple times during Forsaken, you literally offer up an offering to the Oracle to go see her, she's not Savathun, also she's met up with Elsie (before Beyond Light)

Yes, correct she has her own throne world that she was hiding out in, that was corrupted by Oryx.

[quote]Yes, correct she has her own throne world that she was hiding out in, that was corrupted by Oryx.[/quote] Her personal pocket realm is separate from the Shattered Throne, that one isn't desecrated, while the Dreaming City is cursed (but no longer in a loop and now killing Dul Incaru will finally free it without the loop restarting) and the Shattered Throne being screwed up and invaded by the Hive&Taken her small pocket realm that can be accessed by the Oracle is safe although now vacant

According to sword logic and throne world mumbo jumbo, unless killed in their throne world they will return. Now since Mara Sovs throne world was corrupted, does that mean she herself was affected?

She was never killed inside of it

Correct, that's why she was able to come back to life, did the corruption of her throne world have any effect on her? Technically unless her throne world is destroyed, or her access is cut off she's immortal and has similar abilities of one of the hive gods.

[quote]did the corruption of her throne world have any effect on her?[/quote] Also no she was pulled from her Throne (in the Ascendant Plane) to Oryx's Throne , she layed low while we killed Oryx (raid) then she got out with whatever info she wanted to get from there, it's only when she returned to her Throne world that she's seen what Oryx (an Echo of Oryx did it) did to it, cue beginning of Forsaken campaign etc etc It's been invaded by the Hive/Taken, right now it's just sitting there and she's among us in the real world, dunno if she'd go back to it if we cleanse it from the invaders there

I guess what I'm getting at is, does the state of a paracausal entities throne world effect them in some way, so has Mara Sov become tainted due to the changes to her own throne world.

[quote]I guess what I'm getting at is, does the state of a paracausal entities throne world effect them in some way, so has Mara Sov become tainted due to the changes to her own throne world.[/quote] No, even if it were destroyed it wouldn't even affect her, she'd just make another As long as she doesn't currently die she's fine, doesn't matter what happens to the Dreaming City, Shattered Throne or pocket realm we used to visit, the Ascendant Realm is vast so making another "little personal home" wouldn't be hard

So if her connection to her throne world was disrupted or destroyed and she was killed nothing would happen. These are some aspect of the game lore that just don't seem completely fleshed out to me

[quote]Correct, that's why she was able to come back to life, did the corruption of her throne world have any effect on her? Technically unless her throne world is destroyed, or her access is cut off she's immortal and has similar abilities of one of the hive gods.[/quote] "To life" she never died, only her physical manifested self (while her true form and soul was safe and sound in her Throne before being pulled to Oryx's one) was destroyed

So a lot of the suppositions around the character being completely evil seem a little misplaced, from what I gather she's neither evil nor good but in-between.

Again...disagree. To make a long story short....the Battle of Saturn was a HUGE gamble with the goal of elevating MARA to the point where she could take on the Hive Gods as an equal. The goal was to basically STEAL her own throne world by DYING....and then being brought into Oryx's in a form that was not perceived as a threat. Then steal it while the owner is distracted, and ultimately gets killed. Which is why I described that battle as a massive suicide pact on the part of the Awoken . She led THOUSANDS of her people into a fight where they had NO hope of victory (in the conventional sense) and no hope of survival. Their deaths basically provided both cover and the energy to drive her own agenda. An agenda that wound up essentially making HER immortal in the same way that the Hive Gods are. Yet she NEVER really speaks of the sacrifice those fellow Awoken made. ...and anytime anyone dares to confront her on what she's doing? That she's putting her own agenda ahead of the well-being of her people (Ghost)? OR that she's recklessly and lavishly spending the lives of her people in the pursuit of her goals (Crow)? Her response is always to RAGE and subtlly threaten the being doing it. (How DARE you question me or my actions. History shall be my judge....) Again, she is the kind of evil that is birthed when you have unaccountable power....and a mindset of "My Ends Justify Whatever Means Necessary".....being wielded by someone with a THOROUGHLY broken character.

Something I have noticed is that the awoken culture is radically different in the way it functions and the way morality is constructed. They honestly seem to be created as space elves, ie mysterious and value results over values. When completing the Agers scepter quest there's a portion where you speak with Mara after the quest is completed and she is talking about Uldren and how amazing he would have been wielding agers scepter by her side. The way she dwells on her brother, and then entrusts him to you to care for him that seems counter to many of your statements about the character. The character is arrogant, ruthless, and cruel, from what I have seen all the awoken are like that. Even Petra, who is universally seen as an ally is a pretty cold hearted character. Honestly if Mara Sov was a male character she would be viewed more like a Gandalf, or an Elrond. Especially an Elrond, and Elrond wasn't evil, he was pompous, self righteous, manipulative, cruel, and completely self assured in his own actions, and he like Mara Sov or any ruler was willing to use their subjects like instruments to complete the tasks that would help their people. I see her behavior as more of a cultural moral ambiguity and a push to win the long battle over an actual representation of her overall morality.

Don't confuse Awoken culture for Mara's personality. Not all the Awoken are like her. Remember the reason why we have Misraak's as an ally is because one of the Awoken showed him such kindness as a prisoner that he was won over, and realized that peaceful co-existence was possible. Petra is the way she is, because she's another codependant in Mara's orbit who is desperate (and competing with Uldren) for her attention and approval. Lastly, Elrdond was NONE of those things....and the Elrond that was presented in the LOTRs movies was NOT QUITE the Elrond of of Tolkien's writings. Peter Jackson presented him the way he did, because he needed a plausible explanation for why the Elves didnt' come to the aid of embattled Humans in the movie beyond the Battle of Helm's Deep (which they didn't actually do in the books). The real reason was that they were facing attacks from Sauron's forces on their own borders of Loth Lorien (Galadriel) and Imladris/Rivendell. But Jackson for obvious reasons of trying to get things to work as a movie, didn't want to deal with that complicated side narrative So he turned Elrond into this vehicle of suspicion and distrust for men, that the real Elrond (never mind the Elves) never actually had. You see what the REAL Elrond was like in the Directors Cut of The first Hobbit movie when he recieves Bilbo's company as honored guests despite MILLENIA of distrust and suspicion between Elves and Dwarves....during the Council of the Ring in Fellowship of the Ring, and during Return of the King (movie) when he's at Aragorn's side urging the reluctant King to take up his birthright and give the Men of the West the leader they need. It was HIS decision to reforge the shards of Narsil as Anduriel, and to bring it to him as the symbol that he was crown Prince and the rightful King. Long story short, the real Elrond and Gandalf were very similar in termperment....and they thought highly of one another. [quote]I see her behavior as more of a cultural moral ambiguity and a push to win the long battle over an actual representation of her overall morality.[/quote] That's what you wish to see....because that is how Mara tries to justify her actions. "I HAD NO CHOICE". There is ALWAYS a choice....she always chooses what is best for herself, and claims it is best for her people. Mara knows it...and its why Savathun is able to push her buttons by saying the two of them are alike. Because---in her gut----Mara knows that she's right.

So, sticking with LOTR analogy, I think Mara if good will be more like Elrond, if evil will be more like Sarumon. This is dependent on how her story ends up playing out.. I don't think she's good or evil, but the game quite simply hasn't released enough information on her goals. I think the agers scepter quest was revealing in a good way, Petra and Mara seem cold nasty and aloof, and to me that seems to be the way Bungie is attempting to portray the awoken matriarchal society.. I absolutely could be wrong on every count, if Mara comes out with a completely messed up evil plan, I'll have to concede I'm wrong .

She is actually closer to Feanor than anyone else. If you have to limit it to LOTR, then the closest analogy is Denethor.

I think feanor would be a more flattering comparison than deornath.. Feanor despite his flaws was actually pretty incredible, just clearly misguided, prideful and arrogant.

Feanor was extremely powerful and gifted. He was not a good person.

Yeah, that's true, we will have to see how this story plays out, with that in mind, IMHO the Silmarillion despite it's detractors is the best of Tolkien's works.

It was just never intended to read as a novel…

The book was a history chronicle similar to the books of kings and chronicles in the bible, or like the collected works of Greek mythology, the story of Turin Turambar and the tale of Tinuvel are my favorites from the book.