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4/20/2021 2:28:44 PM
27
https://youtu.be/WFjlO5ZAhNg
The problem is that primaries don’t kill fast enough to keep up with the speed of play.
So at high level play, all that getting into primary fights do is leave you vulnerable to being teamshot, shotgunned, supered, sniped, etc.... So no one fights with a primary if they can avoid it.
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Agree that primaries suck but ttk is relatively acceptable IMO. My issue is all the accuracy penalties. In a high speed, high mobility FPS like destiny, accuracy penalties for moving/jumping are just asinine. Sure, you can crouch spam and strafe a little bit, but that’s only useful against another primary. How do you defend against Timmy no-thumbs sliding/dashing in at Mach 5 with a shotgun when your accuracy penalized for jumping in the air, moving more then crouching and strafing just a little bit? What’s even more asinine is having to build my character just to make my guns almost work. All the icarus, targeting adjuster, targeting mods, etc that you need just for primaries to feel moderately useful is ridiculous.
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Lmao no. Basically all high level play is primaries. Especially in trials with the occasional snipers... which... if they are sniping effectively at high level play... that’s just skill... Stop spewing false info cause YOU can’t land your shots
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Not it isn’t. Trials is primary gunplay because it’s Elimination. If you die where your team mates can’t reach you, your basically out of the round. So play is very slow and very passive compared to everywhere else. But in Survival and 6s, all you see are people flying at you with shotguns, and running away from losing primary fights.
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Primaries kill fast enough, and you've been told that already. The issue is that they need perfect accuracy for the kill time, which you don't get when someone is aping you mashing movement abilities. Most TTKs on people rushing you are over 1 second. In D1 you could get 50% headshots and have the same TTK as 100% in D1. The primary play skill gap is so big a lot of people can't keep up and use specials instead which have a smaller skill ceiling. Make primaries easier to use and they will be used more.
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TheArtistにより編集済み: 4/20/2021 5:24:02 PMNo they don’t...and the fact that they don’t is why Bungie can’t balance primaries vs OHK weapons. So they have to starve them of ammo to limit their use. Which no other comp shooter has to resort to. Skill has nothing to do with shotgun use. In fact the higher the skill level, the more you see shotguns and snipers “abused”. Because primaries can’t kill fast enough to keep up with play unless you team shoot. The fact that TTK takes nearly 1 second, means that I can dominate with a shotgun not only the 8 meters that the shotgun can shoot.... but also the distance I can cover in that 1 second. That distance in creased by movement abilities, overshield, etc.... It makes it impossible to balance the sandbox and it’s why shotgun play feels so oppressive. Because there is effectively no range penalty for making it your main weapon. Inside your TTK, I can just fly at you and facetank your fire on my way in. Outside your TTK? Just run for cover.
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Yeah but that's because you can't get the optimal TTK of anything but a 120 on someone with existent movement skills. Pretty much every weapon other than some exceptions have kill times that you're talking about. Quite a few are even faster, the Last Word is a .56, but that's a rare sight. Side arms are all very fast kill times but again need all headshots God knows why. If we see damage numbers bumped up in a way that doesn't make perfect accuracy better, but makes it raiser to get the optimal kill times you'd see less team shotting, less "I can close the gap with a shotgun faster than that primary kills me", and less of that if I'm losing just go to cover mentality.
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Still missing the point. If I'm sprinting at you I can cover a clearly defined amount of ground in WHATEVER the optimal TTK is for WHATEVER primary weapon you have in your hand. ...and If I am at that distance, I have the advantage. Because---if you try to stand your ground and fight----I can LITERALLY just run at you....face take your fire and kill you with my shotgun before you can kill me with that primary. Inside of that distance, I will beat you with such regularity (unless you backpedal or do something else to slow my rush) that you are basically dead the moment you try to stand your ground. You just don't know it yet. Its why Bungie can never get that "shotgun problem" under control. Because the problem isn't shotguns. It never has been.
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Brother_Heshにより編集済み: 4/20/2021 6:08:31 PMTurning every primary into recluse isn’t a solution it just creates another problem. Adjusting ammo economy, lethal light subclass grenades, movement penalty for aggressive frames or tanking the handling and adjusting lanes, cover and map size would be much better. Do you think that lowing weapon TTk is going to stop rush down play. The fact that there is a sever lack in specials outside of a few shot guns doesn’t help either. 1/2 sunsetting really just a lot of weapon archetypes. You talked about game sense and awareness as well as positioning. These are still effective counters in many regards to shotguns.
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The "problem" it will create is that it will prevent people from relying on twitch speed to get them out of their mistakes. People will have to give more thought to how they position themselves, and how they deal with the game's abilities. Also the skill floor necessary for running around and using a shotgun or a sniper as a primary will go up considerably. https://youtu.be/VeGb8oea-cQ Unless this game allows primaries to kill faster, it will ALWAYS have a shotgun problem....and if you eliminate shotguns, you'll just replace it with a team shooting problem.
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Are you under the assumption that if they lower the TTKs that your going to be going 45 person kill streaks all of a sudden? It’s going to just result in spawn traps and lower level players getting absolutely rekt. Halo TTKs resulted in good gun play and more duels. Cod TTK result in the best player farming the lobby and dropping a nuke.
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[quote]https://youtu.be/WFjlO5ZAhNg The problem is that primaries don’t kill fast enough to keep up with the speed of play. So at high level play, all that getting into primary fights do is leave you vulnerable to being teamshot, shotgunned, supered, sniped, etc.... So no one fights with a primary if they can avoid it.[/quote] Primaries kill plenty fast. They can keep up just fine. If you feel slow, it’s not the gun.
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It needs to be reset to 0.6 secs from 0.8-0.85. At that TTK, you’d be able to stand your ground and fight off shotgun apes and other poorly executed shotgun rushes [b]if[/b] you land your shots. It’s the TTK that was seen in vanilla D1.
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I believe TTk on average was higher in D1 more similar to early Halo. I also don’t see how higher primary TTKs would benefit lower skilled players. Personally, I would much prefer new maps with more balanced lane layouts for different weapon archetypes. Also bringing grenades up to a more lethal D1 level would help drastically with shotguns.
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Actually the opposite. In early D1, TTK was faster. A faster TTK favors the smart player and the experienced player. Because it puts more emphasis on reading the flow of a match and proper positioning and flanking. Because the fast TTK limits the ability to run away from losing fights or to fight your way out of mental mistakes. A sloW TTK favors the high thumbskill/fast twitch-speed player. It favors team shooting because it leaves ample time for the fast-reacting player to run away from losing fights, close gaps with shotguns, or line up snipes. It decreases the influence of proper positioning and good game sense. [i]Caught in a bad spot? No problem. Just runaway to cover....[/i]
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Early D1 yes. Y3 is pretty comparable at this point. I understand the TTK values favouring players of different skill levels. I asked how would lowering TTK help lower skilled players? If anything it would make it harder for them. Isn’t the overall health of the crucible not the main concern?
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[spoiler] felwinters being thrown at you at speeds impossible to keep up with by half a team of apes isnt good either...[/spoiler] I was in a 6v6 for a ggames card and its just stacks of felwinters. I tried a few fun older weapons.. and it was impossible. I tried malfeasance.. two felwinter freddies just tanked the shots and blasted me. I tried some scouts.. felwinter freddies again Put on a jotun and a steady hand and became that toxic guy.. cause honestly whats the point in primary
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I dont know what to tell you Malfeasance is a D tier hand cannon, unless goofing around with a full fire team. I don’t know what you would expect that you should be able to 2 v 1 in that situation. Why where you 2 v 1 ? Where was your team? Was you grenade on cool down? Did you not have the ability to back peddle or jump backwards and spam primary? I play in the same lobbies and crucible as the rest of you. I don’t find I get Rekt on a regular basis, though I will admit the matching making algorithm lately is not so hot. I have not been riding shotguns as of lately. There are many viable alternatives to shotgun specials. The sandbox does need tuning, which is coming next season. #1 to remember someone else’s load-out isn’t the #1 reason you are loosing.
