Yup 👍 I was hoping for a redemption arc... it seemed possible after he denied Mara the 1st time.... Now, last week... he talks about standing w her, abandoning the light... he messes up and has an oopsie when talking to Mara about the ghosts. No spoilers for this week, but I think I might have a good idea of what Savathun might have told Crow. [spoiler]Mara was involved in developing ..."raising" Ghosts. I think that's why she, initially, seemed angry when she learned her brother was resurrected. [/spoiler] This post wasn't actually a mistake. I want people to remember what events surrounded Crow's revival. The ship, the armor... the taken guarding his cubby. The traps/locks Crow was working on in that hidey hole... why Spider put a collar on him & why he was forced to go into hiding.

I don’t see how she could of been, she wasn’t in the universe when they were made. Ghosts were made when the Traveler went comatose from being attacked, chronologically speaking. Mara and co didn’t emerge from their pocket dimension for some time. So when Risen were first running around, the Awoken weren’t here.

Again, it's a theory I've stated previously... Also, why I made the distinction.... maybe NOT the original creator, but still involved in their development as a device for control. [spoiler]"Raise" was the oopsie Crow made, that he quickly corrected when talking to Mara about the Ghosts.[/spoiler] And, or it has to do with physics... theoretical quantum physics respective time dilation and contraction around a singularity... i.e. The Pale Heart. Happy Holidays. Do you remember the locks Crow was working on in his cubby? That's where this post came from, btw. Did you play StarCrossed yet? 😜 Spoilers for the mission: [spoiler]There's 3 "paracausal" locks that look a lot like the ones Crow was fiddling with. I'm not saying that Crow/Uldren put those locks there either, just to be clear. The Vex are protecting the eggs. [/spoiler] The mission is a clear foil for WishEnder and Mara's relationship with Sjur, as I've talked about. I'll elaborate more on Thursday or Friday. That's a hint though, all season... [spoiler]The Vex have been trying to protect the eggs.[/spoiler] I want to give you something extra per my theory... I think... [spoiler]They, the writers' at Bungie, want us to believe Crow has turned heel again. BUT.... This week he let the Vex get an egg, we missed it. AND... It was kinda' Crow's fault. That's why Riven was losing her mind. I think Crow will be redeemed... I think he's made the choice. That will be the only egg that survives. Mark it. Crow was late, failed... on purpose. To save the egg.[/spoiler]

To be involved with their development but not creation requires her to have been involved even earlier. Time dilation explains the two different speeds of time passing, faster in the Distributary and normal in the material universe. And the singularity affecting that is the one that houses the Distributary. The Pale Heart can’t be factored in, for a singularity to have an effect on space time it needs to be interacting with that dimension. Gravitational distortions can be detected, directly and indirectly. Nothing like that has come from the Traveler. Your idea is relying on what looks like time travel. For Awoken Mara to have a hand in something in the material universe while she was inside the Distributary is traveling back in time. Especially given the large time gap between Ghosts and the Awoken emerging from their dimension. Relooking over Black Armory lore, we see a overlap of the mysterious earthen creatures wounding human Ada and the group encountering a Risen shortly after. Making the time of Ghosts emerging shortly after Mara and co entering their dimension. So they would of needed to leave the Distributary while Darkness forces were still on Earth. That’s practically as soon as they got in. You need time travel for this to work. Mara has always been double scheming. She was trying to steal Oryxs power for herself during TTK and got herself killed over it, we had to bail her out of that failure. Starcrossed. I don’t see how it relates to Mara and Sjur, it’s about Ahamkara. The story doesn’t parallel or relate, at least to me. Wanna elaborate on that part? So I know where you’re coming from? The Vex? A wish dragon solves a lot of their problems, namely their inability to fight paracausality. I’d say the fact that they copied and replicated Techuen magic explains how the Vex are able to do more and get one over Crow. As it seems their changing their code to align with Darkness and how it works is hinting that they are gaining power. Much like how Quria adjusted to capitalize on Oryxs throneworld granting her Sword Logic. Either the Vex are tapping into the power in the Garden or are gaining it themselves. This looks like the much feared evolution of the Vex threat, where they start flexing outside of their domain. I don’t see why Crow would pull a double op, he’d only be endangering everything he cares about.

Development can be furthered after inception.... And time dilatation as it pertains to a Singularity... is about Gravity, the forces of Gravity... theoretically relative to distance. Meaning both the Distributary and Fundament could be the same place.... COULD, or relative to their distance from the anomaly event... different places being affected during the same event... maybe only a few lightyears apart, maybe only thousands of kilometers. Relative to distance and the magnitude of the gravity, one place could have progressed a millennia... while the other spot existed for Century. So, in my theory, the Distributary is closest to the Pale Heart inside the Traveler. Singularities, in a multi-verse reality, span multiple universes... which is a core conceit of the Destiny Universe... multiple timelines/universes. Singularities are not, theoretically, bound to a fixed point either... that's how the Traveler can move. Wishender is the bow of Sjur Eido... the paramour of Mara Sov, and the Awoken's greatest warrior... It was created to kill Wishdragons. Sjur used it to kill Eao during the Great Hunt. Then she was assassinated. Wishkeeper... is its foil. Bow is connected to Riven's lifemate Tarranis; their relationship and the bow's purpose. A direct juxtaposition. War vs. Peace (if it's true) Assassination vs. Sacrifice Evil vs. Virtue You ever play Mass Effect? See the Fifth Elemen? Keepers... the fat duck faced aliens... the Vex are like universe caretakers. Maybe like the Protheans and the Keepers there is something dark behind it OR maybe like 5th Element totally altruistic... protectors of the stones, of life in the Universe. That's why they created the Black Heart... it's a simulation meant to discover a remedy, a way to close the Pale Heart. A simulation we ended with the guidance of one Mara Sov. She took the throne under false pretenses... started a war to do. She facilitated the Great Hunt under false pretenses after the Amhakara had chosen Peace. She set Riven up. So, why is it a stretch that she had similar motivations respective the Black Garden? It isn't. That's why the Vex are trying to protect the eggs, and are impeding our progress.

[quote]Development can be furthered after inception.... And time dilatation as it pertains to a Singularity... is about Gravity, the forces of Gravity... theoretically relative to distance. Meaning both the Distributary and Fundament could be the same place.... COULD, or relative to their distance from the anomaly event... different places being affected during the same event... maybe only a few lightyears apart, maybe only thousands of kilometers. Relative to distance and the magnitude of the gravity, one place could have progressed a millennia... while the other spot existed for Century. So, in my theory, the Distributary is closest to the Pale Heart inside the Traveler. Singularities, in a multi-verse reality, span multiple universes... which is a core conceit of the Destiny Universe... multiple timelines/universes. Singularities are not, theoretically, bound to a fixed point either... that's how the Traveler can move. Wishender is the bow of Sjur Eido... the paramour of Mara Sov, and the Awoken's greatest warrior... It was created to kill Wishdragons. Sjur used it to kill Eao during the Great Hunt. Then she was assassinated. Wishkeeper... is its foil. Bow is connected to Riven's lifemate Tarranis; their relationship and the bow's purpose. A direct juxtaposition. War vs. Peace (if it's true) Assassination vs. Sacrifice Evil vs. Virtue You ever play Mass Effect? See the Fifth Elemen? Keepers... the fat duck faced aliens... the Vex are like universe caretakers. Maybe like the Protheans and the Keepers there is something dark behind it OR maybe like 5th Element totally altruistic... protectors of the stones, of life in the Universe. That's why they created the Black Heart... it's a simulation meant to discover a remedy, a way to close the Pale Heart. A simulation we ended with the guidance of one Mara Sov. She took the throne under false pretenses... started a war to do. She facilitated the Great Hunt under false pretenses after the Amhakara had chosen Peace. She set Riven up. So, why is it a stretch that she had similar motivations respective the Black Garden? It isn't. That's why the Vex are trying to protect the eggs, and are impeding our progress.[/quote] Only if they are still being made, they aren’t. You can’t further develop something that is made and not being remade. After that you can only research uses for them. Exploiting vulnerabilities already existing. And there isn’t any gravity well coming from the Traveler, so by your own idea of how it works it can’t apply. Fundament is in the material plane. There’s no way it could be the Distributary. For that to be possible, Distributary would need to leave the singularity and travel back in time. You need more than non existent gravity wells for that. Using other rules in other fictions to say how Destiny works is flawed thinking. Who said the Traveler can’t move? Didn’t I say the Awoken singularity is orbiting our system? You’re just repeating me. It’s a stretch because it’s a ludicrous claim. The Vex are now universal protectors and Mara is the evil one? We we know what happens if the Vex hadn’t been stopped, they would of gained the Black Hearts power and destroyed the Traveler and the cosmos. So since your idea requires non-Destiny rules and an outright 180 of lore? Your idea, not a theory, is not viable. Because it’s mostly spinfoil.

Yes, you can... I have a great example that fits the parameters. Music is a great example. There is the "Bruce Vig" Nirvana & the "Steve Albini"... Nirvana. Some people are naive enough to believe that recording music is just "recording" the band playing. Music producers are huge piece of the puzzle, many iconic bands may not have that status unless they had a Rick Rubin, RZA, Bruce Vig... Steve Albini who worked with the Melvins...one of Kurt's favorite bands. That's development after inception... with an existing entity. Any object that has mass has gravity. Have you been inside the Traveler? If the Pale Heart is the singularity, it has incalculable mass. It's not a stretch or ludicrous... the concept being the Pale Heart as the Singularity. Nor is it a stretch that Mara.... vested into the power and influence of said singularity, would puppet us to disrupt the Vex's simulation trying to close that anomaly. "We we know what happens if the Vex hadn’t been stopped, they would of gained the Black Hearts power and destroyed the Traveler and the cosmos". How do you know this? 😉 "The Vex are now universal protectors and Mara is the evil one"? You still don't get it. There are no absolutes that we've yet to confirm. Possibly... that's why I gave 2 examples: The Keepers by way of the Protheans from Mass Effect & The Mondoshawan from the Fifth Element. Mara is corrupt... a tyrant, but as is often the case...it's a matter of perspective. "Your idea, not a theory, is not viable. Because it’s mostly spinfoil". Baseless dismissals because you lack any substantive counters. 😇 👍💠

You’re comparing music to a physical object that operates independently of the entity attempting to manipulate it? Ghost flew off and started doing their own thing after creation. Whereas music sits on a disk, at the mercy of whoever touches it. So no. You’re comparison has opposite parameters. One song vs millions of independently operating entities. That’s laughable. And there’s no gravity well coming off the Traveler. So now way the PH could be affecting the material universe, where Fundament resides. Nor can you explain how the inversion or time travel happens. So an idea you can’t explain based on a premise that doesn’t exist. Aka spinfoil. Cause that was the entire premise of the base D1 campaign, why we had to stop them from merging with the Hesrt. Also the card Ghost Fragment Exo Stranger 2 clearly shows her time traveling into the past to alter events. Indicating how she knew how to help and that more was to come. The Vex are not like either of them. Reapers do it to ensure natural life cycles continue, to avoid a wholly dead galaxy. The Vex want to kill or convert the entire galaxy because of…reasons. They would completely exterminate natural life cycles. The Mondoshawan were Light sided against Darkness. Vex aren’t aligned with either but the Sol Divisive is going Dark. Plus they also don’t want to kill/convert the whole cosmos. You just responded to those substantive counters with more spinfoil. Seems like I called it right. Not a theory, barely an idea, just troll garbage. And that’s why you avoid posting details. Easily dismantled.

[quote]Mara has always been double scheming. She was trying to steal Oryxs power for herself during TTK and got herself killed over it, we had to bail her out of that failure.[/quote] That wasn't a failure, that was the scheme, as set up by Mara Sov and Eris Morn. The only failure in the plan is what we see in Forsaken, that she didn't expect her Techeun's to try and save her, get themselves taken and expose the existence of the Dreaming City. We had to bail her out of that.

She didn’t get his power though, correct? And lost her corporal form and needed to be rescued? Wouldn’t that make it a failure?

She did get his power. She even actively used it to destroy a Pyramid Ship from the inside.

Sorry for the delay, I thought I replied. Was it a temporary power up or did she make it her own? I can’t find anything to indicate it either way.

It’s actively implied to be her own power, as the issue is that the Pyramid Fleet (The Witness) wouldn’t fall for the same trick twice. Not to mention the numerous references to moving onto a new board of play surrounding the plan with Oryx.

So she has some of it but it’s useless. Explains why it’s only in the CE lore and nowhere else. Those references don’t add up without the CE lore. More to the point, she wouldn’t be moving onto a new board until after the play against Oryx. Not before or during when she is weaker. She would need his power first before moving up.

It’s not useless. It’s simply that she wouldn’t be able to destroy a Pyramid Ship in the same manner again. The reason she was able to destroy the one references is because she used the power of Oryx to appear like him to the perception of others, a trick which disgusted Eris Morn and allowed her entry into the ship. It was then destroyed from within. As for the board, yes, she did move onto a new one in the wake of Oryx’s death. I’m simply referring to the fact that it was the stated intention before the plan was enacted and was the outcome.

She hasn’t destroyed one since though, right? And I couldn’t find anything to say her plan was a success in the game. I tried, that’s where the dueling bit came from. It was all I could find. So if it’s only in the hard copy book and never used again to destroy one? It amounts to a special note for people who shelled out extra money. So the only real gain was the baseline boost to her power. Which helped her tangle with Savathun but not Xivu so much. So useless isn’t the right word but underwhelming is.

Underwhelming is the correct assessment. But that’s what happens when you give a character that level of power. They haven’t adequately shown the abilities of any characters besides Oryx, Savathûn and the Witness. In one cutscene a Legendary figure like Saint-14 struggles against a handful of minor Vex while in a lore tab he effortlessly spawn camps Savathûn over and over again by one-shorting her.

I looked it up, in the collectors edition. No wonder I wasn’t aware. She gained power from the exchange, when she dueled him. She didn’t gain his full power like we could have had we mantled him. Thanks for the heads up, interesting tidbit.

She didn’t gain power from duelling Oryx. She stole power from him when he was killed by Guardians, as had been the plan from the beginning. Her death was the means to slip into his Throne World where she then waited to claim his power when he died, this is detailed in the Awoken of the Reef lore book. There’s also the point that her sacrifice was for more than just this. In destroying the Dreadnought’s escort Mara Sov haulted Oryx’s advance at Saturn where he then pivoted to Taking the other factions instead of assaulting Earth directly, something which bought us time to deal with him.

Mara blatantly tells Petra why she was angry when Uldren was resurrected. She knew Uldren would be resurrected and had expected him to be folded into the Awoken so that she would have a Guardian under her direct control. Back when she was more focused on the war against the Darkness and not the people around her. There’s no hidden mystery to it.

How do both even read the lore, All I read is Blah blah blah, random -blam!-, blah blah blah

This isn’t even the case of reading lore, Mara openly tells you this was her intention back in Season of the Lost. It’s not even lore, it’s just story.