{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
Editado por The First Aifos:
11/11/2023 7:44:51 PM
41
She doesn’t. Luke was just as much of a “Mary Sue” as Rey was, so if she sucks, so does he.
English
-
[spoiler]I disagree with you because Luke never actually won a battle against any Sith. Vader beat him in Episode 5, then again in Episode 6. Palpatine was going to kill Luke before Vader threw Mr. Zappy down a hole. But, I think Rey was justified in beating Palpatine, since the Jedi did their empower thingy, she lost before that. The rest of this reply is in building on what you said.[/spoiler] The longer someone waits for something, the more hyped they are. The more hyped they are the more likely to be disappointed. There is a reason you’ll notice games be announced a week before they release(sometimes the day of if you look close enough.) People were waiting for decades in order to watch Star Wars 7-9, that’s decades of hype, nothing could meet that.
-
[spoiler]I never watched episode 9, but if I’m being honest that feels a little nitpicky to me. Like, it’s not like he had no unrealistic victories—like, what are the chances he could actually destroy the Death Star over all these veteran pilots?[/spoiler] I definitely think that overhyping is part of it, but I also legitimately think if Rey was a dude, she would have been better received. There’s just this culture going around in movies where any woman protagonist who does something amazing gets hated on, especially if they’re part of a series that previously had a male hero. I mentioned a few times on here OSP’s video on Mary Sues, wherein they point out that Goku from Dragon Ball is legitimately the most “Mary Sue” character ever, but people love him, because unlike all these other supposed “Mary Sues”, he’s a dude. I don’t think Rey is the best character ever made or anything, but that she’s hated so much over Luke—who is literally an author self-insert character (“Luke S.”)—is just silly. The sequels got some problems, but Rey isn’t one of them, imo.
-
Dude Luke isn’t a Mary sue. Also… [quote]if she was a dude[/quote] Absolute bull. I know hundreds of people who hate Rey, but adore the character of Leah. Rey sucks because she does. Most big SW fans agree bastilla shan, great character. Metra surrek, Great character. Leah, great character. Ashoka, great character. Padme, great character. Don’t even associate the vast minority of political fans with actual true SW fans. Were there polotics involved that I wish weren’t? Sure. But I try to shut it out of my takes. Find me a YouTuber with any influence on the fandom, who hates Rey for being female? [spoiler]if anyone asks, you turned this into politics…not me.[/spoiler]
-
If Luke’s not a Mary Sue, neither is Rey. If she is, he is. I like them both either way, but one can’t hsve the title without the other. The thing about all the characters you’ve listed is that they’re not the leading role. This is a bias that applies specifically to main characters. It’s not something exclusive to Star Wars, either. Once again, go watch the OSP video on Mary Sues. And before you bring up a spinoff or something, spinoffs are different. People are okay with it there, for some reason? I’ve seen it plsy out time and time again. Heck, it’s even happened to Hollow Knight for Pete’s sake. To some extent, consciously or otherwise, s*xism plays a role in why Rey gets so much hate. She’s not the best character ever, but she’s by no means as bad as y’all make her out to be.
-
Also it’s not s*xism. Why do people want to call me a s*xist so much? It’s a perspective that you may not hold as you aren’t a huge fan of SW.
-
I’m not necessarily saying you specifically, I’m saying the community in general. All I’m saying is when there’s a new entry in a long-running franchise where a new protagonist steps in, if that protagonist is a woman when the previous one is a man, she always gets a disproportionate amount of backlash.
-
Luke and Rey are different in so many ways. I can count more differences than similarities. Also if you were able to read some of replies to your comments than you would change your mind. Luke was not lacking in flaws, which is vital to be a Mary sue. The dude left dogobah even though two jedi, wiser than him, said he shouldn’t, he never beat vader, and the movies depicted his lack of experience very well. Luke fought vader in episode 5, and lost. Luke fought vader in episode 6, and he lost. Rey fought kilo in 7 and she won. She fought kilo in 9 and she won. These two characters have different outcomes, unfortunately because of bad writing on Rey’s side. [spoiler]ugh…this is where I lose even though I’m right😂[/spoiler] [spoiler]btw if my comments sound rude, or angry, that’s not what I’m attempting to do. It’s hard to read people through text.[/spoiler]
-
Rey had flaws, too. She was impulsive, and quick to anger, and just because she won a few fights doesn’t mean she’s immediately a Mary Sue. Luke blew up the Death Star pretty much by himself, despite the fact that there were several other veteran pilots around who were much more experienced than him, and Rey got herself kidnapped at one point. Also, Darth Vader was stronger than Kylo—this was something clearly lined out in the movies. Kylo wanted to be like Vader, but he wasn’t good enough. That was the point of his character. Luke probably could have beaten him as well. And I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but Rey either did lose, or it was implied she would lose, had she gone up against Snoke, hence why Kylo murdered him and not her. In the following fight scene, she only won because Kylo was helping her out, too. I never watched nine, but nothing in 7 or 8 felt unrealistic for her to do. If anything, I’d argue Luke blowing up the Death Star was more unrealistic than anything she did, but no one talks about that. Didn’t Anakin fly a spaceship as a child in Episode 1? Why aren’t we calling that out? Or heck, Anakin’s whole deal was that he was basically obscenely powerful for no reason, why is it okay for him, but not Rey? I’m only working off of memory here, because I don’t care to actually go rewatch the movies (and don’t own them if I did), but I remember being surprised at all the backlash she got, because she wasn’t that bad of a character. Not amazing, but not terrible.
-
I think the ultimate issue is the terrible writing, arguably way worse than any sins the previous films committed.
-
I guess my hot take #2: None of the mainline Star Wars is that well written. The originals are probably the best overall, but even then I wouldn't say they're masterpieces or anything. That's not to say there aren't good scenes therein--there are plenty of good indvidual scenes--but overall the story is really only alright. Star Wars is mostly fun because of the world it built, rather than the story it told. This is why I actually like 7 & 8. 7 was kinda just a retelling of 4, but with some fun new characters, while 8 was an exploration of how various characters handled failure, which was fun. I'm kind of a sucker for the "fallen hero" trope, though. I love it when the person who was once a total paragon who saved the universe turns out to not be what everyone expected them to.
-
I get what your saying here. It’s a thing among fans, and even many sequel fans, that “George Lucas” style writing is what good writing is. Unfortunately Disney trashed his sequel trilogy after lying to him about it
-
Nah, what I’m saying is that George Lucas doesn’t have that great of writing either, and the worst writing is in the prequels, not the sequels. The mainline Star Wars is fun for its worldbuilding, not its story.
-
Well that’s not my opinion…but an opinion is an opinion
-
Let me be clear, I'm not necessarily saying that in a bad way. I enjoy Star Wars, but I think it's telling that most people will either say their favorite Star Wars is the one they grew up with, or some sort of spinoff. Very few people will every say their favorite is one of the mainline entries without nostalgia coming in to play. But also, some of my favorite stories are ones that aren't actually all that great at storytelling, but are really good at worldbuilding, and it's honestly an appeal that's basically become a whole genre of stories in video games--with games like Dark Souls, Risk of Rain, and Ender Lilies all focusing on telling their story more through the environment than the actual, well, story. Personally, I'd group Star Wars into that camp, too, but I also wouldn't say that's a bad thing. Good worldbuilding can be just as important as good storytelling.
-
-
Luke has flaws, and often requires someone else to get him out of sticky situations. I will list them now to refresh your memory. - Obi Wan scared off the Tusken raiders that likely would have killed him if he hadn’t intervened - Obi Wan further saved him from the two thugs in the cantina, who might not have killed him but still posed a threat. - Luke doesn’t succeed with the training droid on the first try, requiring Obi Wan’s guidance. Keep in mind, this right here is training to [i]use the force.[/i] this will become pertinent later. - He doesn’t play much of a significant role during the prison escape, as Han comes up with the plan, Leia takes them into the garbage chute, C-3PO saves them from that, and Obi Wan yet again saves them by lowering the tractor beam and distracting Vader which allows them to escape, however even with a tracking device and several TIE’s following them. - He shoots one or two TIES in the Falcon, though, again, not by himself, and is immediately told to not get -blam!-. - In the Battle of Yavin he’s able to fly a starfighter thanks to prior experience with Skyhoppers and his previously explained interest in joining the imperial academy. These are skills which we [i]have been told[/i] he knows, it makes sense that he has them. Furthermore, he has [i]some[/i] training with the Force. Following Ghost Obi WAN’s advice (for the second time now) is the only thing that allows him to make that proton torpedo shot, prior to which he’s saved AGAIN by someone else, Han Solo. Episode 4 is done and dusted, no signs of a Mary Sue in sight. Shall I remind you of how Rey fared in her first movie? Or shall I move on to episode 5, and show you how much of a Mary Sue luke is there?
-
Yes that’s the point. We saw him fail his training. We saw obi wan guiding him as a master. characters need to fail , yet Rey never does. She just try’s a mind trick or two and she’s ready to beat palpatine. Wow Rey your so powerful that you suck.
-
[quote]Normally I’m all for walls of text, but Star Wars is one of the things I won’t debate, so I’m not reading that. I made my statement, and I stand by it.[/quote]
-
Very well, then I’ll condense it down to but a single question: What are Rey’s flaws?
-
It’s been way too long since I watched them to say anything for sure, but from what I remember she was very rash & impulsive, and quick to anger.
-
And did this ever cause her significant trouble?
-
I believe it did, yes. It's been a while, though. I'm just going to go recommend watching Overly Sarcastic Productions' video on Mary Sues, though. They brought up some good points iirc, and as I said, I don't really care to debate the topic any further.
-
I’ve already watched it, though to be fair, [i]it’s been a while.[/i] The problem with Rey is that there are too many instances of unexplained, unrequited success compared to Luke for the idea that they are BOTH Mary Sue’s to be anything other laughable. Luke fails against Vader in his first fight with him, Rey easily beats Kylo. Yoda trains Luke and shows his experience to him, while Luke passes on…little to no knowledge to Rey at all, save his failures, and Rey goes off to Kylo ren having not changed at all. And most significantly, [i]luke[/i] doesn’t defeat the Emperor. [i]Vader[/i] does, killing himself in the process. Rey defeats the emperor all on her own and dies [i]after[/i] the fact before Kylo heals her with his lore breaking force heal ability
-
Bro doesn’t mention a single point that I made… Every one of these points I have provided are correct. Luke’s story had volume. He had motive to help the rebellion. Her story: walks around, finds droid. Doesn’t sell him. Finds out her parents aren’t coming back and that’s the only think that made her allow herself to leave. Then barely understanding what the force even is, and still being skeptical about the existence of the force and the Jedi, all the sudden uses mind tricks like she’s been training for a long time. If you understand the abilities of the Jedi, you would know that mind tricks usually only influence. It take not a push but a shove from the force to [b]make[/b] someone do something. Episode 9 she’s now blowing up ships with sith lightning. NO ONE trains that fast. The force is something you practice. And you don’t get better at everything by training on a single skill. She blew up a ship with lightning without [b]any[/b] training. It’s stupid because we never got to see her progress, we just saw her in her weakest, and then her prime. Not what happened with Luke. And the only reason Luke is a weeny is because of Disney. Statistically Rey isn’t more powerful than palps. That’s absolute bull. The amount of bull put into Rey’s character like making her OP without much training is a slap in the face to legacy characters. Rey’s actor…great. I never blame it on the actor but for gosh sakes give her time to do some real training. I want the character to be good, don’t get me wrong. That’s why I can’t wait for filonies movie is because I’m hoping it gives the character a second chance. And to be honest you might think I’m critical of only the sequels but I’m not. I despise the romance dialogue in the prequels. And Jar jar was too involved. There are things I dislike about every trilogy, but I had just finished episode 9 for the first time and it annoys me that we don’t get the character development Rey deserves.
-
Normally I’m all for walls of text, but Star Wars is one of the things I won’t debate, so I’m not reading that. I made my statement, and I stand by it.
