[quote]What are you really having trouble with? [/quote] Certain people----the second you put them in any sort of hierarchy----immediately start to step on and kick DOWN at those they perceive as being "beneath" themselves. PVP players in video games are especially bad (as a group) at doing this sort of thing.

If that's all people are going to focus on then it should be pretty obvious why they don't end up improving. Its similar to why I don't like going on LFG. Because you can end up with people that think playing the game is all about a certain attitude or appearance and not about putting in any work or effort. And its also one of the reasons why I ended up liking Trials more than I thought I would. Because no matter what they do, and there's quite a bit done for lower skilled players in that mode, the people playing the game are going to have to deal with the fact that some people are just going to be better at it. When people are competing at something the problem can't always just automatically be that some people are good at it so it has to be those peoples' fault. And with Trials the amount of stuff that is done to mitigate the skill disparities and playstyle differences in that mode should be clear as day at this point.

[quote]If that's all people are going to focus on then it should be pretty obvious why they don't end up improving.[/quote] Who said that anyone needs to improve? Some---actually most----people simply play to have fun. They also prefer cooperative play to competitive play. But PVP in this game is always sucking up all the oxygen in the room....always consuming more-than-its-fair-share of resources..... ...and then PVE players have to deal with toxic and condescending PVP players ON TOP of all this. The question isn't [i]"Why are the mad?".[/i]....the question is[b] [i]"Why WOULDN"T they be mad?"[/i][/b] The issue with Trials isn't that its hard. Its that its WILDLY unpopular...only is important to a small fraction of the player base....and is consuming a MASSIVE of amount of Bungie's time, energy, financial and human resources. ...and to what end, exactly?

of course people need to improve. especially if they want to have fun in a competitive mode. there is no fix for any pvp mode that would make bad players happy. trials wildly unpopular? then why each weekend there are a plethora of posts like this? if it's only important to a small fraction of people then people like the OP shouldn't be concerned with it should they? people clearly want to play trials, they just need to be realistic as to where their skill level and choice of how they queue will net them.

There is very little in life that people "need" to do. Ninety percent of what we insist are needs are just desires and choices.

should they desire to play trials, then they need to improve. see how that works? clearly they want to play. choose to get better.

[quote]should they desire to play trials, then they need to improve.[/quote] No. They don't. ..and Bungie needs them to play Trials more than they need to play it.

YOOOOOOOOOOO Kelly spitting facts. I can’t count how much pve suffered for pvp. It takes but never gives anything worthwhile, except maybe a few guns or a home for people who enjoy pvp. Nova warp was useless for 2 years because it was good in pvp. If people were to quit treating it like it’s the freaking Olympics or something then maybe it would be a better experience. New players posting on the forums about how toxic pvp is shouldn’t be a thing, but day after day I see it. The community for pvp just keeps getting worse and worse, just try and be a better person people it isn’t that hard.

Its not about how "good" the people are its about how the mode works. If you're always looking for bad people then you're always going to find them.

Dang. That makes sense, but it is hard to fix something like that. I’m used to expecting people to be toxic, and I feel as though some of it has started to rub off on me. It sucks that stuff like that can happen. I just hope the game gets fixed, even if it takes a while and that the community gets better.

I'm not necessarily talking about you but I just feel like people worry way too much about the "toxicity" thing to the point that the focus on that turns into the actual toxicity.

Me titan brain am confused, but me titan may get it. U say that the focus on how toxic the community is has become toxic itself. That’s trippy.

Yeah. That's basically what I'm saying. Especially when the focus on the toxicity originates because people are mad they are losing. And with some of the posts on here I have to ask myself "did this person ever actually play destiny at any point?" I've already seen several people on here that had barely played or didn't play it talking about how the mode works. And then there's the people that lose 4 of their first five matches and so everyone is now toxic.

I agree with this. Some person asked to ban all players who didn’t speak English and I was like what the frick that doesn’t make sense. Luckily a sneaky boi ninja made it disappear.

[quote]Who said that anyone needs to improve? Some---actually most----people simply play to have fun.[/quote] That's just not the case. Most of the people complaining base how much "fun" they're having off of how much they win. And to be fair most of the people that aren't complaining do the same thing. I have no idea how you could possibly think PvP is consuming more than its fair share of resources when it hasn't even had a new map in however long it is that people keep reciting. That's kind of some bias showing. Anything for PvP or any focus on it at all is too much for some people. At least Bungie isn't [i]that[/i] bad. Trials actually isn't that hard. Its just something where if you aren't that good or you want to be the best there are pretty clearly identified steps to take in order to get there. Its most definitely not what this game could be in terms of becoming the king of reflexes simulator that some of us want it to be. There are things that you can clearly do and weapons that you can easily use in order to do better at the game. And the matchmaking is one of those things where when you see people talking about it during those days where its about as fair for it to possibly be you just know they don't know what they're talking about from the things they say. So what are you even supposed to say to those people if all they're going to say back is that you're talking down to them? I'm not good at Trials, and I have no idea who is because there's no reason for me to be focused on really good players right now. If you pay attention to matchmaking, which is really starting to get to where it needs to be in order for the mode to be sustainable regardless of what anyone thinks about how it should work, then you can see how to increase your chances of getting the outcome you want or at least being able to have "fun." Its really not that hard you just have to look at certain things that have nothing to do with what the good players are doing. Some of them are basically playing a totally different game, so just the fact that people focus on them so hard proves that those people aren't approaching the mode right. As far as the time and focus that its consuming, that's Bungie's choice and its that way because they say so. Its not that way because higher skilled players demanded it, so once again there's really no reason to be focused on really good players for any of us that are average or below.

Actually it is. Which is why PVE always double the size of PVP engagement these days....and half of that PVP engagement is Trials. PVE:820K PvP: 422K Trials 200K There are people who see this game your way. Just not enough of them to make this game **profitable**.

I can think of a ton of companies that would love for their PvP only games to have 422K players. Now, for this game since its so obviously expensive they probably want that higher but you also have to factor in the fact that the season basically ended last week, the weapons have rotated all the way through, we're heading into the holidays and people are doing whatever, and for the majority of the season the PvE numbers were actually higher because of Trials. PvE stayed over 1 million on DT longer into the season than any season in recent memory so I'd say the mode is a success overall. And just personally, my friends list and clan list stayed populated longer into the season than it had at any time just about ever tbh. Of course it can be better. But it will never look that way to people who are only looking at the downsides. And I can't help but to say it even though its considered bad form but as someone that has played PvP as much as I have the things that mode has been able to do all at one time (or actually split up over the course of the weekend) have been nothing short of a small miracle. The main thing I was worried about was if it was just going to be miserable to play solo. Not so much because that's the way I play its just that sometimes with this game if you look at the margins where people aren't playing it necessarily the way its supposed to be played you can see what's likely to happen in the future. During the flawless pool days I just don't see how someone playing solo with realistic expectations would not be having "fun." And similar things have been done for just about every playstyle and skill level. And its been done with proper movement and shot registration. All that stuff had to have taken a lot of work and for people to not be able to handle sometimes getting blown out by higher skilled players is honestly bordering on delusional.

Amen. PvE players are also extremely elitist. These are the same people that demand you "KWTD" with 35+ clears MUST HAVE GALLYHORN Pfft. But you know what? The elite trials players can still get all their raids done and their lost sectors. Cause they investigate how to do a thing, and then they do it.

I don't know why but I find most of the PvE elitism to be cute. Not the toxic raid boss hogs. But most of it is pretty tame compared to what it could be. For whatever reason people seem to be able to understand why someone doesn't always want to spend 2-15 hours running a raid with someone else that lied about knowing what they were doing.

[quote]I don't know why but I find most of the PvE elitism to be cute. Not the toxic raid boss hogs. But most of it is pretty tame compared to what it could be. For whatever reason people seem to be able to understand why someone doesn't always want to spend 2-15 hours running a raid with someone else that lied about knowing what they were doing.[/quote] It's should be tame, we are fighting non sentient programs that do the same thing week after week in the same positions. But they fail to understand why you wouldn't want to continue run Trials cards with a person that doesn't care to get better or try harder. They fail to understand the effort required to arrive at "sweat" status. They fail to understand that things being relegated to participation trophies in hopes of making things "fun" lessens the feeling of accomplishment upon completion, so there's no lasting joy.

I pretty much agree. No matter what kind of mode it is, there's going to be somewhat of a process involved when it comes to getting the kind of outcomes you want. Now the hard part is figuring out how to convince the people who might be focusing on the wrong things that that can actually be the "fun" part.

[quote]I pretty much agree. No matter what kind of mode it is, there's going to be somewhat of a process involved when it comes to getting the kind of outcomes you want. Now the hard part is figuring out how to convince the people who might be focusing on the wrong things that that can actually be the "fun" part.[/quote] Where your focus lies is what you will draw to you and produce in abundance. Let them be mad and fearful of their inadequacy. If they stop coming to Trials, the Trials players will come to every other aspect of Crucible. It is known.