Flawed logic here. Bungie didn't remove the guns, they simply adjusted them so as to not be overwhelming and result in a large (probably larger) part of their capitalist-purchaser-player base not being able to compete or enjoy the game like the minority of players with the guns.

The problem is not those guns. The problem is the lack of bloom on 180 rpm handcannons. That's what makes them so good. People will still use the likes of Trust, Sunfall, or Service because of how dominant the archetype is. The have better range and fire faster. Flinching a slow firing handcannon with high caliber rounds renders them powerless. People don't understand that those guns reward good aim. Crappy aim players who paid for them still can't use them to this day lol. Nerfing the guns have damning consequences. Players will just start using the same new gun that takes it place. You guys cry nerf. This will happen until all the loot is back down to Y1 levels of pitiful. It also shows that pinnacle weapons are a failed concept. Why bother if it gets nerfed? Weak, un-cool loot = Y1 repeat all over again.

OK .... but that has nothing to do with the actual point of my response. They're not taking away the guns from those who have them, or dividing them up to be equally apportioned out to the entire player base. You use the word "communism" but I don't think you know what it means ...

They're killing the guns to allow other, more readily accessible guns to take their place in the "meta". Guns that are easily obtained through less complex means such as strikes and patrol. That way everyone has a "meta" weapon. Therefore, everyone is "equal." But not everyone will be equal because some people are just better players than others. So the nerf train will start rolling again until we're back to Y1 levels of pitiful. There's more than just 2 ways to implement a sense of Communism. That applies to any idea. Just because they aren't removing them completely doesn't render my comparison incorrect. Destroying their usefulness in a mathematically balanced system with clear rules is almost no different. That sort of inside the box thinking is what's leading to these unnecessary balance changes. We quite clearly saw this take form and shape when everyone had access to MIDA and Uriel's Gift during launch. People STILL wanted nerfs lol. You can't please people who don't want to accept that there are people who exist that are better skilled at FPS games than them.

I think that you may be assuming a result that isn't necessarily so (plenty of posts by LH and NF users disagree with your assessment). As the only precision 150--and still with their unique perks--these guns will still be in the top tier in the hands of truly skilled players who know how to use them. It's just that this compassionate change by Bungie allows other players who aren't as skilled--but yet just as dedicated and committed to the game--to actually have more of a balanced chance to do well in Crucible and experience maybe even a fraction of the enjoyment that the minority of current LH and NF users have been experiencing for 8 months.

A result that isn't necessarily so? I've been with Destiny since Taken King. Every time there is an outcry to nerf a weapon that is perceived as OP, that outcry just changes as the nerfs roll in. It's overwhelming. SUROS > Thorn > Last Word > Doctrine > Clever Dragon > Universal Remote > shotguns/snipers > NLB > and finally sidearms All those weapons. All that focus and shifting to nerfs. And they were ALL readily accessible to EVERYONE. Yet they ALL got nerfed. And that's just Destiny 1. What you refer to as truly skilled players will drop anyone with any thing. Using other weapons depends mostly on mathematical time to kill values and ease of use. When the nerfs go live, majority of owners will forego them simply because there exists more convenient options. Options that fire faster, can flinch slower firing weapons, AND benefit from the lack of bloom. 180 RPM handcannons aren't going anywhere simply due to lack of bloom. The fact that all of them can fire faster AND potentially roll to flinch those guns automatically gives an insane advantage against them. And then the nerfs will come again. It's a vicious cycle.

Like I said, there are plenty of posts by LH and NF users who flatly disagree with your assessment. As to the rest of your response, you're completely missing the point of the second part of my response.

I guess time will ultimately tell whether or not which assessment is more accurate. But the guns that have been nerfed already exist to tell their story. And its always the same: they die and fall out of use. Actions over words/theory. And Bungie kills weapons. Destiny history proves that. I will always side with what has been proven to be the most likely outcome. Even Y1 D2 reflects my sentiment. I understand you think it is compassionate. I get that. I really do. But what I'm trying to say is that no matter what they nerf, and how readily accessible they make the next best weapon, loot will continue to suffer nerfs due to skill disparity. And it's not completely on the fault of the careless, the lesser skilled, the indifferent, the bored, or anyone else. It's ultimately because Bungie refuses to 100% split the balance system and address mechanical issues. As it stands, if the changes go live, Bungie effectively admits that it's useless to grind for flashy cool weapons. They wind up useless and comparable to that of water pistols. Ergo, the player's time isn't respected.

I really do appreciate your overture of empathy ... it's definitely a constant balancing act, since we're dealing with a retail game that by definition must have broad appeal to the collective playerbase. All in all, though, I believe that this was the best decision to make since only a minority of players have LH and NF and have been making Crucible increasingly unfun for "lesser skilled" players like myself ... but please keep in mind that "lesser skilled" does not automatically correlate to "careless," "indifferent," "bored," "casual," etc. It just means lesser-skilled. I spent around 3 months solo grinding around 3 hours every day in Crucible to get LH and just couldn't get there. (especially as I was increasingly put up against stacks of LH/NF users). I would absolutely consider myself as loyal, hardcore, and committed a player as any LH/NF user, and my unfortunate skill deficit (which, again, I've sweated to improve as best I could w/o making D2 my f/t job) shouldn't prevent me from experiencing at least some of the enjoyment that the few highly-skilled players with these weapons can. This is not the Olympics, but a capitalist-system-based retail game.

Honestly, I think having one of the nerfs would have been fine. Pick and choose. But both is overkill. The guns simply don't make God tier players out of anyone. I work a full time job, I pay bills, I want everyone to be happy with the game, I know not everyone is created equally. I know what it means to not have time on one's side. I understand, I really do. But the problem is that Bungie is taking the tried and failed way out of this. In a competitive setting, there are just clear winners and losers. People have to win and people have to lose. I've been on both ends just as much as everyone else. Crying nerf hurts everyone. I want everyone to get these guns so they can see they're not as OP as they're made to be. If anything, I think they should utilize Crucible labs for changes like that. Making the quest requirements less intensive is a great place to start as well. Dedicated servers for SBMM is another change I would welcome. Yet Bungie refuses. Luna/NF symbolize the zany gunplay, I love in a sci-fi shooter. Coupled with space magic, it's awesome! PvP is all about showing off your trophies. I would be okay with titles / ornaments / cosmetics, or a combination of them taking the forefront to establish investment amongst players. Communistic blanket nerfs solve nothing and never will. I would rather everyone have access to the gun before nerfs happen. That's how things should be done. Collective agreement over simply basing it on how hard it is to fight through competition. But some people will still find issue on both sides. That's where Bungie needs to put their foot down and declare some ground rules. Because when you make a product for everyone, you tend to make a product for no one.

I could go with any of the things you suggest. I wish they had made the grind to Fabled the first step, since it would've saved me the wasted time and effort of doing all the previous steps only to be stonewalled by the last. :-/

Yes, you are right. Bungie nerfing two guns is akin to communism. Ha ha, this is hilarious. I am having way to much fun with these unbelievable reactions.

I have questions. Have you earned the gun? Have you used the gun? Do you understand what the nerf actually entails? I'll answer for you. You haven't and you don't. You have like maybe 60 games under your belt, all in Season 6. Now either this is a troll account (which is sad), or you're just making an ass out of yourself (which is also sad). It's been proven time and time again that handcannon bloom mechanics, especially on console, is hurting the PvP experience. Sweeping glaring issues under the rug and choosing to appease the Have Nots or the Non Strategic Crowd is an insult to paying customers who earned those weapons. It sets a precedent going forward that it's useless to grind for pinnacle weapons because they'll just get nerfed. Nerfed because of attitudes like yours. They're nerfing this gun just for people to start complaining about other guns lol. It's an endless cycle.

Paid recoveries have already made the grind a joke.

I literally queued solo for this gun this season. Look at my history, you'll see I earned Fabled just before Revelry started. The grind wasn't much of a joke. It was rather easy. I earned an 11 game win streak. Maybe 2-3 hours total to reach Fabled. I had to get precision handcannon kills in a sea of Skip Grenades. That I'll admit wasn't fun at all. Using paid recoveries to justify the nerf to a weapon that most users obtained in a legit manner is a terrible argument.

Tbh the nerf won’t really affect people like you actually earned it. You’ve already got the skills to use it effectively so it won’t be hard to adapt to the minor changes. On the other hand, paid recoveries won’t be able to use it anymore because they don’t have the skill. Think about it: it’ll have the damage and fire rate of a 150 PLUS the accuracy and stability of a 180. It’s going to be balanced just right for those who know how to use it. Honestly it’s gonna be the best 150 HC now, that’s all that changes. And on the other hand, it also means there’s a little bit more room for outplaying a Luna’s. You can talk about using other types of guns all you what, but when it comes to hand cannons, Luna’s and NF have very little competition. Even from most exotic hand cannons. (Ace is literally the only one that has a fraction of a chance because range).