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7/26/2017 2:47:21 AM
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The Hunter class ability is perfectly suited to the Hunter class.
You get a free reload or a free melee charge depending on how it's used.
You want team play options for a class which is not built for it, when there are other classes that are actually built to accommodate team play.
This is an example of entitlement.
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I feel you don't main Hunter and are just trying to stir the pot.
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No I don't main a Hunter. I main a Titan. I do this because I think I can better support my team with a Titan. The tools that a Hunter has at their disposal are better used to benefit the single player, not the whole team. If you want abilities that support the team, you should pick a class that has those abilities.
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That makes no sense. Why would you want to limit one class to solo players only. The entire game is built upon the idea that these 3 classes are supposed to coexist. End game content should be designed the usage of all 3 classes. If the intention was to only use Titans and Warlocks for end game activities, well then you might as well remove hunter loot from raids. Cause that is what you are going to see happen. People will ask for Titans and Warlocks for raids, while staying away from hunters. It has the danger of creating a lot less class diversity.
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So, if you were around for VoG back in the day, Hunters were seen as useless and were not requested. The need was for Titans and Warlocks. What you're saying will happen, has already happened. Bungie always talks about the Hunter fantasy, and much of that fantasy has nothing to do with teamwork. It's not that Hunters aren't made for team play, it's just that the goal for what a Hunter is and can do just doesn't coincide with the needs for a team. Even still, you are part of the team and can help out. If the Titan is the shield that defends, and Warlocks are the mages that buff with abilities, a Hunter is the one doing the damage. Each class has its place in the team. Hunters help the team by actively shooting and clearing enemies. That's what the Hunter fantasy is all about and it is reflected in all of its abilities. You pick your role and you play it.
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The fact that it happened once before doesn't excuse it in the least. Especially not when Bungie's aproach to the other two class abilities is clearly to move the utility of certain sub classes to the classes as a whole. Their reasoning can only be to create more class diversity. However Hunters utility is nowhere to be seen. The idea that hunters help the team by actively shooting and clearing enemies is a naive one. Every class does that. The hunter doesn't have any skills that make him/her better at doing that. Like I said. Every class in Destiny is a DPS class. Every class' main job is to shoot enemies. Giving two of the classes utility and 1 not will create a very unbalanced en game. And excusing that overlook by the fact that it happened before doesn't make it better, it makes it much much worse.
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When a Titan casts his shield, who does he protect? He protects the whole team. For what reason? So they can sit there and wait for the enemies to die? No. So they can use it as a base, as cover so that they can keep working. When a Warlock casts her rift, who does she buff? She buffs the whole team. For what reason? So they can sit there and heal whilst the enemy shoots them? No. So they can get a boost in the heat of combat, so they can keep going for those precious extra seconds that they need it. When a Hunter rolls and dodges, and receives more ammo or a second melee charge, they can keep going. All the Hunter's perks and abilities benefit the Hunter. They all help the Hunter do their job better. Shooting enemies is all well and good, everyone can do it. But landing those critical headshots and getting that stability buff, so you can keep doing it. And when you run out of ammo, or when you suddenly take aggro, you can dodge and keep going. The other classes can't do that. You can be an Arcstrider and get swarmed by adds. The Hunter is best equipped to deal with this, roll-melee, roll-melee. Don't downplay the Hunter. All their things help them. Perhaps you would like to help the team more. Well shoot your gun. The Hunter subclasses were intrinsically not supposed to be support classes. You can see that in the way they play. Or be a Titan. Or a Warlock.
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Again it is about objectively comparing value. Movement + reload does not equal infinite reloads for entire team for 20+ seconds. If the hunters are only supposed to buff themselves then it should be obvious that their buff should equal more output not less. Because it has less potential thanks to it only affecting 1 player compared to 3-6 players. With that being said hunters could easily have gotten a class ability that gave them a utility that benefited the whole team without it being a ground based buff. Just because that is the way those two class abilities are designed does not make that the rule of thumb for how to design utility. There are many ways one could implement such things. F. ex a stun, interrupt or a debuff. Kinda like the shadowshot did. And that is just a few ways of many one could think about implementing utility for a class that is supposed to be more mobile, which it isn't, and more of a lone wolf.
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As a class that revolves around the lone wolf idea, I think the class ability reflects that well.
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Yes, but compared to the other two class abilities it doesn't offer anywhere near the same utility. My argument has to do with the objective value of these things. How that will affect team compositions of people that play the game at the high end of the spectrum, especially as these usually have a big effect on how everyone plays the game. And please stop with this, but the hunters are supposed to be lone wolves argument. Lore should never dictate gameplay decisions. They can be considered and should probably be used as inspiration. However arguing that Hunters should be less worth in fireteams because the lore says they are loners makes for very bad game design.
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So then just ignore the lore? Remember that the lore and gameplay come from the same philosophy, they're just expressed differently. Yet they still need to be in conjunction. If you are playing a lone wolf class you cannot expect to be useful up front like the classes that are made to be useful up front. It just doesn't make sense. Likewise if a Titan was to play from the back like a lone wolf, most of their abilities will be effectively useless.
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Editado por RabbitFly: 7/27/2017 1:17:41 AMI never said ignore the lore. Those were your words. What I said is that lore should never dictate design. This is true for any game or any lore. A game is first and foremost a game. One should always try to consider lore when designing a game, however lore is not and never will be in any game some kind of oracle on what is and isn't right in game design. You keep putting forth this idea that this is a discussion about hunters being up front or in the back. For one there is no part of destiny's design that follows that logic in any way. This seems to be all made up in your head. However it doesn't matter because that is not what anyone is talking about here. I am asking you to objective compare the value of the class abilities. In which case it the hunter's ability will under perform in almost every scenario. I am not asking that the hunters ability should be equal. It should however be comparable. Do you understand that? Even if a hunter is really good with the dodge it is impossible for the dodge to be comparable in value to the rally shield or the warlock's rift. No matter how much value you put on mobility it does not create anything near the value 3-6 times X would do. Because that is what it would have to considering the hunters dodge provides 1 reload while the shield provides potentially hundreds of reloads. I don't understand how that is that difficult to see?
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No, I understand what you're saying. You're saying that the Hunter ability is not as valuable as the other class abilities. All I've been trying to say is that, that's part of the package, deal with it. You picked that class, it's what you get.
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Well that makes no sense in a multiplayer game where you want class diversity.
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People will choose what they want. Some people play well with the Hunter setup and will make it work. You're just assuming people won't play Hunter. Objective comparisons only work in theory, because you can't take into account the practical usage. We don't know how it will fit together in real end game scenarios, or how much the skill of the players will affect its capability. It's hard to accurately attribute value to something in a scenario we haven't experienced yet.
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Yes it is true that people will play what they want, but it is just as true that people will make sure that they create a party that has the best chances of completing their task at hand when completing end game content. It's like you think that Bungie doesn't want Hunters to do end game content. It is bungie's job to make all the classes wanted for end game content. And dare I say, it is their objective. As I have already pointed out. It seems to be the main reasoning for introducing the class abilities in the first place. Putting the most desirable utilities from Destiny 1's subclasses in the class abilities instead. In effect making all of the titan and warlock sub-classes equally valuable in group content. It is just strange that they didn't do the same for the hunter. Objective comparisons is the only worthwhile comparisons we can make. Everything discussed on a forum will be theoretical, but without objective reasoning all you have is conjecture and preference. These things never say anything about what is fair and can never truly be used for any comparison.
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At the same time, we have no idea what the end game will even look like. The only way we can make objective comparisons is to compare them against something. The only end game we know is from D1. So you're seeing how the new Titan and Warlock abilities can work in D1 and they are as effective as what we have now. But I don't think we should be going down this route. Destiny 2 has new gameplay and thus the endgame may be very different from what we've seen. So even if we are making objective comparisons, they may not even apply, or may be so far away from what may actually be the case in reality. We will have to see how it all plays out.
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It doesn't matter what kind of end game we will see in Destiny 2. My anecdote applies to all multiplayer games ever made in the history of games. It's even pretty logical. If given a choice, people will almost always choose the most efficient way to do anything. Even in life.
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By that logic everyone should be a Titan. It has everything.
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That might happen though. However it is not likely. As I already pointed out we are more likely to see an even split of warlocks and titans because they have unique abilities that give a big value. 6 titans in a raid would have a lesser potential for value than 3 titans and 3 warlocks. Mostly because the uptime of the rally shield would overlap to the degree where potential value was wasted. Your personal opinion that titans have everything is not based on any objective reasoning. F. ex they don't have the rift ability.
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I want invisibility for survival in PVE, not for the team.
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To hide where? Bungie says, none of that anymore. You have to rely on your strengths. Hunters are built for getting hands on in the fray for long. If you're getting that hurt that you need to go invisible to survive, you're doing it wrong. You're better off with a Warlock so you can cast a healing rift.
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Editado por Iron Wu: 7/26/2017 3:58:48 AMlol so Hunters cant have survivability skill trait because according to you we need to get good? so then you should view Warlock and Titan mains as the cookie cutter classes for bad Destiny players. One has a wall to hide behind, the other has a rift to heal. I guess they are just built wrong by Bungie.
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So you mean, having a super that ypu can shoot far far away, literally having the ability to dodge and roll away from enemies, and then having the additional benefit of the roll-melee combo, you're telling me that none of these help you survive? The Titan shield very obviously makes things easier. Warlock rifts obviously makes things easier. So yes, for a new player I will direct them to these classes because it is easier to survive with them. But to be effective as a team member is a different story. So no, you didnt raise a valid point there.
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Hunters get one reload during the animation of that "dodge", which is more of a spin that lasts three seconds. Meanwhile, Titans get a shield that they can take cover behind, and it will reload the gun in hand [b]every[/b] time they go behind cover. There's a massive difference in usefulness between Hunters and the other two classes, and this comes from a Warlock.
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As a Hunter, what are you doing at the forefront of the fray, in the heat of he battle? It seems like some people don't understand the nuances between the classes and how their abilities play a part in those.
