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Editado por Adam: 10/18/2015 6:51:17 AM
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Adam

Bungie, Your Sandbox Designers Are Still Failing Miserably At Balancing The PvP

Remember a few months ago when everyone used to complain about Thorn/The Last Word/Hawkmoon? This idea that you pretty much had to use one type of weapon in order to stay competitive? How you'd join a game of Iron Banner and literally every single person in the lobby was using a Hand Cannon? We all disliked it..... It was boring. Pair that with the shotguns, and the game just wasn't fun. There was a community outcry to have it changed, so Bungie put out patch 2.0 with TTK. Yet here we are, 7-8 weeks later, still stuck with an unbalanced mess of a game, even after the 'Holy Grail' of balance patches in 2.0. The only difference is, this Iron Banner, instead of being forced to use Hand Cannons, we're now having to use Pulse Rifles (which are even easier to use than Hand Cannons ever were) Instead of entire teams of Bladedancer Hunters, now it's all Sunbreaker Titans. Pre 2.0, everyone used the same shotgun. Post 2.0 everyone uses the same shotgun. Some pretty bad decisions off the top of my head: [i]*Final Round, a broken perk that allowed a sniper to OHK to the body was removed/changed............. In TTK, Luck in The Chamber is introduced to High Impact Sniper RIfles, allowing them to OHK to the body * The dominant PvP weapon pre 1.1.1, Auto Rifles, were nerfed [b]heavily[/b] leading to a meta where Hand Cannons ruled. The nerfs were largely down to an exotic, Suros Regime.............. The dominant PvP weapon pre 2.0, Hand Cannons, are nerfed heavily, leading to a meta where Pulse Rifles dominate. The nerfs are down to exotics, Thorn/The Last Word * Shot Package is removed from shotguns in an attempt to solve the shotgun epidemic plaguing the Crucible....... Weeks after a 300 attack High Impact Shotgun with RangeFinder is given to every player *A large factor in the shotgun abuse was the Vanilla map design of tiny claustrophobic maps which favour heavy shotgun use.......... In TTK, the majority of the maps are tiny claustrophobic maps, which favour heavy shotgun use * The Sandbox Designers make range & damage drop off an important aspect of weapon balance after Hand Cannons have seemingly no damage drop off........ Every weapon type suffers severe damage drop off. Pulse Rifles have seemingly no damage drop off *Sunbreakers and Stormcallers are released in the most gamebreaking state....... Seriously, were these even tested?! [/i] [/i] Now I'm not saying the game should be perfect. there are a Hell of a lot of variables to balance, which make this a complicated process.... But to see these poor decisions being made so consistently is incredibly frustrating as a PvP player. To have a game with such potential being squandered by imbalance patch after patch is very disappointing. Just my thoughts. - An avid PvP player since the Beta

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  • Is anyone at Bungie able to explain why shots from the Last Word (at ideal range) are constantly disappearing into the ether? Why does this happen? Does this raise any red flags for you Bungie? Might be worth a look.

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    • NEW METS IS SKILL GET GUD SCRUB

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      • I was with you until you said that Stormcallers were released in a game breaking state. What exactly is game breaking about the Stormcaller subclass?

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        • The final round being nerf'd and then luck in the chamber being given out, so f'n stupid.. Then as you mentioned, they removed shot package while giving everyone a comparable shotgun to replace it...really?!?! Sunbreaker is so f'n broke I have no words for it, ran into teams of HoS Titans and yeah..good luck with that as your entire team gets wiped trying to stop one and then oh wait..there is the next one. Great post as always man, don't think they will ever get it right judging by past history and current decision making.

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          • MeanMrMustard92...... I would like to thank you for this awesome and much needed post. I've been saying this for a couple weeks now! Pulse rifles are the new meta.....WHY CAN'T WE HAVE BALANCE???? Actual -blam!-ing balance!!!!!! Auto rifles are still not very good, if you take a pulse vs auto in PVP, each player hitting headshots at the exact moment....pulse wins every time. How can they continue to do this? Why can't they get it -blam!-ing right? Stormcaller is OP as well......look at Bladedancer vs SC. SC wins hands down when it comes to killing multiple targets. It's so frustrating that I have to use a weapon class that I don't like in order to compete. Get your shit together, BUNGIE!

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          • Another winner with no concept of how a meta works.

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            • Thing is you change something for pvp and it breaks Pve. They need a way to alter the pvp gameplay and leave the PvE aspect alone.

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            • Editado por ironcladtrash: 10/19/2015 4:36:48 AM
              People used to complain about Bladedancers but Stormcallers are worse. They are fast have range and it lasts too damn long. I can outrun and avoid a Titan Sunbreaker and kill a Bladedancer before he gets close. But Stormcallers have speed, range and lasts a lot longer than any other super.

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              • Editado por RavenousLD3341: 10/19/2015 8:00:34 PM
                I'll say it again. Pulse rifles are widely untouched. Pre 2.0 Bad Juju did 27 damage on headshots.... It still does Red Death pre 2.0..... 31-34 damage... post 2.0 same. They don't have damage drop off because (Like sniper rifles) The maps aren't big enough to get outside of their range. No they aren't OP. I promise. I've been slammed many times while using these weapons.... Because skilled players know how to beat them. Close the gap, get close. Bad Juju can't compete with an auto rifle or a hand cannon once you get in Auto Rifle/Hand cannon range. I can easily beat the "OP pulse rifle" and i'm bad at the crucible. I'll even tell you something crazy.... An entire archetype of pulse rifles got an accuracy/stability nerf, and it was the popular sub type. The Mid impact/ mid fire rate version. This is the most balance I've ever seen, and I actually found the Crucible more bearable than ever before. How about you close your cry baby mouth and figure out how to beat a pulse rifle.(it's not hard) I have no opinion about supers.

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              • Editado por cViking: 10/19/2015 12:21:21 PM
                I finally got a good pulse rifle with a decent roll on it so I can understand what you are saying, after only running Suros in IB I got the IB pulse with a good roll and holy cow does the pulse rifle make everything so much easier. Killing cross map with 2 to 3 trigger pulls every time is insane, I tried going back to other primaries but when I put the pulse rifle down I feel like I am at a disadvantage.

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                • Totally agree. They also should implement a rank system in IB and ToO instead of using light lvl. Light lvl is RNG based therefore shouldn't be used as the corner stone of competitive PVP.

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                • As long as your PvE build is linked to your PvP build, you'll never get this balanced MLG experience that you're looking for. The only real solution is for the Crucible to be its own game entirely. Are Sunbreaker and Stormcaller broken? Absolutely. Should they be fixed? Not if it's gonna ruin their viability in PvE. Is time to kill too low on Red Death/Bad Juju/Hawksaw/etc? Of course. Should they be fixed? Same answer as before. Are shotguns still overpowered? No question about it. Should they be fixed? God no. Each of the last 2 patches to them has made them less viable in PvE to the point that they're barely getting used again. I play a lot of PvP myself and the only conclusion I can come to is that you can't take this game so seriously. There are just too many variables involved in attempting to balance this game as it stands. Hopefully when Destiny goes fully next gen, everything will have separate stats for both game types.

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                  • The balance is fine. There are a lot of Pulse Rifles but they mostly trade kills.

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                  • These hammers and bows are getting out of hand

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                  • Everything is viable right now but pulses have the upper hand just learn to play your positioning and you can run anything.

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                    • Why do you people expect "balance" in Destiny? It's a loot based shooter! Why would i want to get a new auto-rifle if all of them would preform in the same way? Destiny doesn't have dedicated servers, no private matches, no official ranking system.... It was never designed to have a real "competitive" PvP.

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                      • I see what you're saying, but honestly, anything is viable. I use auto rifles, scouts and hand cannons in PvP, I hardly ever use a pulse. In fact, the primaries seen to be balanced very nicely. There are no broken primaries. A skilled player could use the supercell or the hawkmoon with similar results. As for specials, I've seen a lot more people sniping. Shotguns are still a slight problem, but it's not overwhelming like it was pre-2.0. The only real problem I can see that you listed is the sunbreaker Titan. Just nerf the armour to the point where it can be snipe headshotted and golden gunned and it will be balanced. I congratulate the sandbox team on their tremendous work making all weapon classes viable again. [spoiler]Except fusion rifles. RIP Fusions.[/spoiler]

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                        • Thank you for your contribution of tears

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                        • I just don't understand back when the game first launched we had the rain of suros. All we needed was a nerf to that particular gun and the other one( I believe it was grimm citizen I don't remember for sure) But they nerfed entire auto rifle class to literally nerf guns. And then another monster rears its ugly head every time they nerf something they drank all of its dials lay down and crank dials for other guns up. All that was really needed in the beginning was a more severe damage drop off at range for auto rifles and I dare say PvP would be far better today if that was the only change we had seen. When something is obviously broken why do they just start twisting knobs and changing everything and making adjustments to every aspect of the game Why don't they just turn down one knob a couple clicks just one or two adjustments and see what happens. Instead they flip switches and turn knobs and adjust everything so much so that they don't know where it was when they started. Now we have pulse rifles that are out doing scouts and snipers at long range and have no competition at mid range since hand cannons can't hit the backside of oryx And we have guardians jumping through a hail of bullets for the shotgun literally taking you know shots to the face to bring down a bull elephant only to shoot you with a shotgun( conveniently provided by Bungie @ 300 power with rangefinder) we have warlocks that set off a fist of panic and then go on a electrified death march that the evil Emperor Darth Sidious could only imagine in his wet dreams. Then you have The Flaming nearly indestructible Titan who throws flaming hammers fast enough to make Thor look like an unskilled construction worker. And not only are these flaming hammers a one shot kill just like Golden Gun they also explode like a miniature Nova bomb. O and they can also throw three to four times as many of them as the hunter can fire golden gun. When this game first launched I believed that people at Bungie played the game and enjoyed it. I believe that on any given day at any given moment you could be going toe-to-toe with people that work at Bungie and not even know. Now I wonder if they have even turn this game on in the last couple of months. In the meantime battlefield 4 still sucks, battlefield hardline turned out to be a major bomb and even worse than battlefield 4( no surprises there) Call of Duty is still call of duty, Destiny's PvP is still the same 1 gün fits all crap that it always has been, and the Star Wars Battlefront beta didn't have much to offer. I have heard that Metal Gear Online 3 is good, I'll see you guys there

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                        • Here's the problem rock beats scissors, scissors cut paper, paper covers rock. If everyone uses rock just use paper and so on and etc. There's no way to balance all of this.

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                        • I see what you're saying, but honestly, anything is viable. I use auto rifles, scouts and hand cannons in PvP, I hardly ever use a pulse. In fact, the primaries seen to be balanced very nicely. There are no broken primaries. A skilled player could use the supercell or the hawkmoon with similar results. As for specials, I've seen a lot more people sniping. Shotguns are still a slight problem, but it's not overwhelming like it was pre-2.0. The only real problem I can see that you listed is the sunbreaker Titan. Just nerf the armour to the point where it can be snipe headshotted and golden gunned and it will be balanced. I congratulate the sandbox team on their tremendous work making all weapon classes viable again. [spoiler]Except fusion rifles. RIP Fusions.[/spoiler]

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                        • How do they fix the sandbox designers? [spoiler]hire sandbox designers[/spoiler]

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                          • Bump

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                          • Bump for dayz

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                          • Since ttk released I've never had less fun in a game as far as pvp goes. It's my favorite part of the game and it just isn't fun anymore. They added a super that feels like they never even tested it. It takes so long for then to release updates to try and balance it. I will probably be lost to halo or battlefront and I hated the battlefront beta. But anything is better than this.

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                            • If any of you have ever watched the people at Bungie play any of their games, you'll understand that they are awful at everything they make. They don't know how to balance the game because they aren't good at it. It's just like my department managers at work. They spend all day barking orders at associates to get stuff done. They leave the department, we get swarmed with customers, and when they come back, they wonder why their orders weren't done. If the people in charge don't know what's going on inside whatever they're in charge of, they shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about how it works.

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