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Изменено (Lucky McKillya):
9/20/2021 4:34:43 PM
32
The counter argument no one has stated about Trials and the Flawless Pool
I've read a lot of these posts from players on both sides mostly bickering saying the same thing but from both perspectives. The common thought process is the possibility of going flawless. I'm an average player with a average K.D. Please check my stats if you would like. This weekend I solo'd to 4 wins and met a with a pal with equal skill for the last 3 seemly by chance when he was done doing strikes.
Have people asked Bungie to make 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th runs of GM's harder for the same level of loot? If you constantly fail does the 25 level Delta with 13 negative modifiers go away? No, it sounds ridiculous but you are asking for the same. Within it are some adds that are easy others not so much and naturally they get easier assuming you didnt get carried. You build strats, unity, and you figure out what weapons work and what don't.
The other argument is if the casual leaves then trials dies. People who don't enjoy the competitive pvp environment dont replay trials anyway, they get their carry and leave. Especially because they now belong to this special flawless player pool and every game will be against the players so tough that they are good enough to make the other 99% quit for the weekend. If the sweats can't have fun then it def dies and ironically they are the ones that stick around from Friday at launch to reset on Tuesday. They individually have more games played per weekend then any other player type.
The real answer is there is no answer that will be sufficient and won't lead to some complaints. The only thing a person can do themselves is take the responsibility to care enough to want to get better. One person comes to mind and his name is Ascendant Nomad aka The Crucible Doctor. He makes videos teaching skills the average player needs to know and practice......often.
Whether it be Trials or GM's the ease of completion should be dictated by the preparedness and skill of the individual and the team. Easy or Hard are relative terms when you compare it to an individual activity. An activity won't and shouldn't be the same difficulty for everyone. Better players that grinded for the right weapons and worked on their individual skill and created unified teams are going to have an easier time.
Thats what happens in real life and it translates into the game. People that are more qualified and prepared to complete a task will have an easier time than those who just showed up with whatever they had just laying around and little prior experience.
Added: im glad some people agree with me. I basically said make sure your ready and difficulty may vary and thats an unseeingly unpopular stance to have.
English
#destiny2
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My favorite part is how they wanna park their useless asses in pve Playlist shooting bots all day and then complain when they don't get good enough at crucible to compete in trials. I'm trash at PvP and play trials for the fun and if I can't get flawless or enough wins cause other players are too good, then -blam!- it, I didn't earn the weapon. I'll keep practicing and coming back next week til i can earn the gun. I don't know how the diehard pve mains are so soft that that concept is lost on them
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2 отв.In all fairness, the more times you go flawless the better you are, logically speaking. So someone who can go Flawless 9 times in one weekend with the current system is logically better than someone who can only go flawless once. By this reasoning, the latter of the two likely won't do too well against the former, and the former has put much more effort into it as well. So the former should be entitled to better rewards AND harder opponents. Each consecutive flawless ought to not only put you into a higher tier of player pool, but each higher tier SHOULD have better rewards, and eventually more of them. If you can go flawless several times per weekend, you should be given loot to match the effort and skill needed for that. It would encourage the high tier players to actually TRY to get consecutive Flawlesses, and discourage resetting passages since every reset is another set of 7 matches you'd have to win to even get back into the flawless pool and that was 7 matches you could have spent getting better loot. It would also encourage casual players to try harder, to get better, in order to get that loot as well. It would boost PvP overall, since the rewards for consecutive flawless could, at high enough tiers, be equal to double nightfall rewards as far as desirability goes.
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You see, I’d bother getting good at pvp if the game didn’t have built in lag, insane aim assist and hit boxes, bullet magnetism, and a “cheese meta” as I like to call it. Pvp doesn’t feel like something that’s about getting good, just feels like you have to double down on everything broken in the game and abuse it so it does everything for you with minimal effort. I’ve never once been killed in destiny 2 and thought “ah that was a nice kill, I should play better”. It’s always “well you can tell he’s on controller with that sniper, oh he’s using shatterdive, oh he hit his super I’ll just sit back and wait to die now(I use suppression grenades and I still stand no chance), ah that shotgun is a slug so he has 20 meter one hit kill range my bad, his bullets just magnetized through the wall and I died and even my ghost is around the corner too! Oh well that thing just passed straight through my barricade, why do I even use this thing?” I can’t ever get through a match without witnessing multiple things that feel either buggy or abused by the other players. So I don’t want to bother getting better because it’s not about you being a better player, it’s about breaking the game as best you can just like we do in PvE. I don’t enjoy that, doesn’t feel proper to me in either mode.
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I’ve seen maybe 1 post asking for Progressive difficultly in GMs. And let’s just see how they feel after this season. Because this season GM’s are going to be harder than most. And to the trials point this version of a trials hurts the most abundant player population there is. The Average player. They’re just not continuing to play past 1 flawless.
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9 отв.EXCEPT... people don't HAVE to play Trials to survive. You can't think of Trials like the real world because it's an optional environment... a choice. If the environment isn't hospitable, the players can leave, BUT the environment itself is only hospitable with a high number of players. Thus, if you leave the environment to its own devices, players will simply leave and it will have a snowball effect until only those who have ingrained themselves in the environment will stay. In order to prevent an exodus, the environment will need modifications to cater to the needs of the many. This will always hurt those already in the environment, but its necessary if the goal is to make the environment more welcoming to visiting players. Like most things in life, it is not fair. It all comes down to what you want Trials to be and how large you want the playerbase. If you want it to be small and ONLY for the truly skilled, it should be reverted back to the way it was. If you want it to be an "above-average"-skilled environment with far more capacity, you'll cater to a larger playerbase. Casuals, for the most part, will not train themselves to be better and 90% will NEVER play with a friend or group. They'll try for the rewards and if they don't get anything, they'll leave. Bungie has stated it would like to keep these players here so they must be rewarded. If you want sheep to stay, you must think like a shepherd.
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11 отв.Изменено (Necrogen): 9/20/2021 12:25:15 PM[quote] Thats what happens in real life and it translates into the game. People that are more qualified and prepared to complete a task will have an easier time than those who just showed up with whatever they had just laying around and little prior experience.[/quote] The answer is actually the players attitude. Players generally don't play pvp for a challenge in destiny...they play for loot. Nothing is going to change their mindset as they have opportunities to get the same loot with less effort. This paradigm has shifted to laziness as everyone has access to builds and gear. you don't need flawless loot to beat the better players - you need time and a committed team. You will see these sweats cry and complain when they get outplayed - you'll see their fake outrage on twitter and reddit. You'll see them accuse others of cheating. They aren't as good as they appear to be if they too are avoiding other sweats.
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27 отв.Reason grandmaster doesn't get harder on consecutive runs is your success doesn't negatively affect anyone else's. With trials they are basically setting it up so everyone can eventually go flawless. If you go flawless your status effectively goes from someone who's simply there for some pinnacles and maybe an adept weapon to someone who enjoys the mode, a mode where the sole purpose is to compete with other players. People who enjoy competing are removed from the pool and put with others of a like mindset so those who don't can get their -blam!- and leave. The only people I can see not liking this are those who only want to dominate over others instead of actually competing. What they truly need is some form of Rankin system. Sure someone who never faces someone better then themselves won't improve, but drastic differences doesn't teach anyone anything either. In a game of a bunch of kids vs a NBA team no one would learn anything other then this match up shouldn't be happening.
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2 отв.I need to offer a stance that may upset some people here. Destiny isn't competitive PvP and although there maybe people who think it is......it's never going to be. If you want me to explain why. I'll keep it simple. Exotics. Broken Abilities. Supers. and there are more excuse type things in the game that prevent it being such. Trials maybe a rough playlist but it's not a competitive one.
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1 ответhm, its almost like actual competitive games involve actual competition and SBMM...
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I'm very poor in all PvP because I don't like it (for a huge amount of reasons). I know my faults. I deliberately don't use the meta weapons , I refuse to run any stasis subclass, and I can't be bothered build a specific character purely for PvP. I used to play a little D1 trials, so when this new mode came out, I was excited and the first weekend was fun. This weekend was not. Trials is meant to be tough, and the best teams should be rewarded. Casuals and solos would also like to play trials, and have the opportunity at a lighthouse visit and some decent loot. But not against 2 and 3 stack teams. I haven't read one post from anyone complaining that trials is too difficult and they can't go flawless, yet I've seen plenty of comments stating that this is the case, from the hardcore community. I've also seen complaints that they're having to play teams of equal levels. Isn't that what trials is all about? Playing and beating the best? Even Ascendant Nomad (as mentioed in the OP) said in his latest video that "this weekend wasn't as much fun", once he'd gone flawless for the week. And I would rate him as a top player. I guess it makes it more difficult for content creators to carry their beloved subscribers. So. Trials should be taken back to how it was, a small number of top level teams battling it out every weekend. No one seemed to complain then. But, have a totally single player trials, PURELY for solos, where anyone can have a go, but have an opportunity at making a flawless run, without getting destroyed by teams. It's not going to be easier, and shouldn't be, but the chance will be there. I think it's a little more difficult having no communication with your team mates anyway, but hey. I think this is just the sensible answer, but I'm sure the minority of conceited ,arrogant members of the community who do not want anyone to succeed in this wonderful game but themselves will have something to say
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Get better at the game --> higher chance of going flawless Crazy, right?
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2 отв.You’ve made a good point and that’s why this post has 0 likes. This community is trash and dumb, you shouldn’t waste your time here. They don’t even understand the concept of improvement and want everything given to them for free. Trials is the “pvp endgame” bungie said, and we still have people 0.20 kd complaining that they lost a few games. Imagine getting 1 kill in a full match and complaining that it wasn’t a win. Laughable.
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6 отв.The only people that like the current MM are the bottom of the barrel players that wouldn’t survive in trials without Bungie holding their hand. It’s why you see them get their flawless with their handheld and stop playing trials.
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Agreed now we just need GMs and Master raids to become easier for players who don’t want to practice or form fireteams as well. It only seems fair that if you are going to make one part of endgame content easier for one group of players who struggle and harder for players that put the time in to practice and improve their skill. That all endgame content should be given the same treatment. GMs and master raids should be made harder for players who beat them in any given week for the remainder of that week and easier for players who don’t. To learn more about this concept I have created a post here: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/259712647/0/0
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GMs are fixed-difficulty. And all but a handful of them are braindead-EZ farmable. It's really not an equivalent comparison at all. Also, Trials as a game mode causes more problems for the game in general than anything else by a MASSIVE margin. (Sandbox changes/nerfs that hurt every other activity.) Also also, Trials isn't in some tiny little neglected box off to the side. Bungie spends substantial time and energy -blam!- ing with it. If it's going to be so problematic and take so much attention, it had BETTER be enjoyable for the majority of players, whatever solution ultimately winds up being the answer.
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Or just make it so people that haven’t beaten it are at -20 AI advantage for the week and players that have beat it are at a +20 AI disadvantage. Only seems fair. https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/259712647/0/0
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I also think this is just my opinion, I think they should bring back the old trials gear and add it to the loot pool again I feel like this could help with players playing trials more so they can obtain said gear since it’s popular and it will be something to grind for in trials.
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What I don’t understand is how crap sbmm is, you get teammates that aren’t even close to your skill level or stats while you get an enemy team that has either the same or higher stats than yourself, I wish they could do something to fix that because plying solo it feels like I have to sweat and carry my team with no comms amd it’s veryyyy difficult solo than it is in a group which I can understand for solo players. What bungie needs to do is enforce comms make it to where you are always in team chat in trials this can help solo players a lot because if you want to win youll need communication, communication can really help change the game around. I get players don’t want to work together mosot of the time and do their own thing but doing your own thing won’t always win the game.
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3 отв.So in short....You are saying "get good"
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1 ответWhoooooaaaa guy , logic in these forums will not be tolerated .
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2 отв.The difference between Trials and GM is in Trails the players set the difficulty. The more people playing GM Bungie doesn’t throw weaker enemies to people who already can run through a GM Nightfall. Yet when more casuals enter the Trials playlist they are fed to the players who can go flawless. We casuals lessen their difficulty. Flawless players act and talk like they are entitled to stomp on and farm casual players in all playlists, Trials especially. They want to get to the lighthouse without having to sweat and sweat and sweat and sweat. And if all casuals are is food for the flawless, then the mode isn’t fun for the casuals, and they will leave. Leaving the flawless to go back to sweating against each other. I don’t advocate for making flawless so easy to obtain that only the bottom 10% can’t get it. But I do think the mode should be easier on casuals and less skilled who for the most part don’t want to go flawless, abut just want to have a fun time and win some games from time to time, while earning loot semi-regularly. You don’t need to remove them from matching with flawless players entirely, but you can’t just leave them to be devoured by flawless players every match. There is a middle ground, and we’re almost there, just not quite.
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5 отв.they have completed destroyed the loot economy for Trials and they have removed any and all flex that comes with Trials flair. Time will tell as to whether that was a good decision. but if they do it to GM's and Raids then there is nothing left in this game for me any more.
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5 отв.You cant compare a pve mode with a pvp mode.
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I thought PvP folk liked PvP because the game mode doesn't stay stale with the same enemies who spawn in the same spots with the same abilities, same pool of health, and same strategy to be beaten? At least that's what I've always been told in PvE vs PvP posts. Should be a paradise for sweats owing to that logic.
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1 ответИзменено (damnter): 9/20/2021 12:41:15 PMYou can't compare raids ore GM' s to trials. When you play those it doesn't affect other players. Trials does. Personaly I think the best way to keep trials healthy is to give a posible chance for adept weapons for wins on your flawless card. Doesn't matter if you loose some matches. You've gone flawless and keep playing that card. Posible adept drop for wins. That will keep the sweats playing on their card, but when they want to carry, they still can. I'm no top tier pvp player but when there's a chance to get another adept on a win, I would just keep playing the flawless card.
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Изменено (mxgreg): 9/20/2021 4:12:35 PMI'm sorry but I think it's dumb to compare trials to GM's. Why did that become a thing? I don't think it helps your case. Overall I've enjoyed having matchmaking. I made to 5 wins off-mic with randoms. I've had a number of games that were 4 and 4 that went to 9 or 10 rounds. I've played alot of people that were also 1000-1300 elo. I learned a bit. I'm not sure what Bungie should do. I'm happy to play with people that are in the same range as I am. I would rather face similar players than people doing carries. I'll continue to play as long as they do. I'm looking forward to trying some new loadouts. If the numbers drop off, maybe we should only have matchmaking once a month to make it more like IB? My only issue is... Since I haven't found meta weapons I like to use matchmaking overestimates my abilities based on previous seasons. I wish they would wipe the stats or only look back x-seasons. I don't really care if someone when flawless for the week. I would rather play people of similar ability. I'd like to see fewer diamond ELO trials players at least until I get my stuff figured out. I'm really just looking for some loot, close games where I can contribute to the win, and a bit of fun.
