Snipers, and some other specials, have too much freedom. And the problem of how everyone responds to it is immediate cries for nerfs. We nerfed shotguns more than 4 times and people still used them as primaries. The same will happen to snipers, no matter how many times we nerf it, people will still use them more than their primaries. Why? Too much ammo, too much freedom. There is another way to balance the game without breaking the guns. [b]LIMITATIONS[/b]. Everyone pretty much either ignores this or don't know that it is an option. Think about it, take away the shotgun nerfs, which seems more op: A shotgun with 6 rounds, or a shotgun with 28 rounds? Same with snipers now, which seems more op: a sniper with 4 rounds, or a sniper with 26 rounds? In my opinion, if anything should be nerfed, it should be the special ammo. You don't always have to break the gun to balance it. https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/182264454/0/0

The bottom line is that the sandbox guys don't know what they are doing with this kind of weapon system. You can't have a weapon system where you let people choose what weapons they wish to fight with....give them unlimited ammo....and expect them to fight with primary weapons that kill in the same slow time frame that they did in Halo. PLAYERS IN SYSTEMS LIKE THIS WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE THE MOST EFFICIENT (FASTEST KILLING) WEAPON AT THEIR DISPOSAL. So what happens is you get a few dominant primary weapons that kill faster then everything else...they become the meta....and then people spam special weapons that kill quickly. Which is why----for nearly TWO YEARS----we have never had a balanced system. Why we've just gone from one dominant weapon to the next with each set of NERFS...and why the game has a special weapon spam problem that no other game like this has, and that Bungie simply can't fix. Without actually BREAKING the weapons themselves. The solution to this problem is a simple one. The games primary weapons need to kill faster. As fast as auto rifles did in vanilla Destiny. But these sandbox guys just won't do that. So we are stuck with the current insanity of an endless merry-go-round of nerfs that only seem the make the game more and more broken and more and more unidimensional and boring to play in PVP..... ...and making the tools for PVE player weaker and weaker, and more and more bland to try to play with. As Einstein said. "Insanity is doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different result." Which is exactly what the sandbox bguys are doing.

This games does need more focus on primary battles, but I think that buffing the primary damage needs to be thought about carefully. I don't want primaries to become so strong that this game turns into a CoD twitch shooter. Limiting special weapons can help a lot as well. Just look at how Halo limited their snipers and shotguns. Made them pickups with low ammo, and you would lose the weapon in death. Here, these shotguns and snipers are in your hands at the very start and ammo is plentiful around the map. I believe that specials, excluding sidearms, have too much free reign, and too much of one thing could be bad.

All that needs to be done is to buff weapons back to the level that ARs were in the vanilla game....or where Doctrine of Passing is now. You just need to have primary weapons kill fast enough that snipers can't rely on being able surive long enough to fight through primary weapon fire to drag scope people. ...and a shotgunner caought out at mid-range won't be able to just run straight at you with their shotgun. Knowing they can get into shotgun range before you can kill them with your primary. THAT is how you reduce the special weapon spam, by attaching a real disadvantage to using a OHK weapon...and turning them back in to SITUATIONAL weapons. Instead of all purpose weapons that you just run around and spam at people until you run out of ammo....then go back to using your primary only because you have to. We saw that limiting ammo doesn't work. People just find ways to work around the limitation....that only magnifies the advantage of spamming the weapons, becaue the side using the work around has it, an dthe other side doesn't. Then people just spam the weapon until the ammo runs out...then they only use their primary until they can get more special ammo. Special weapons dont' have too much freedom. Primary weapons just kill too slowly for them to be able to command any respect from someone armed with a OHK weapon.

[quote]We saw that limiting ammo doesn't work. People just find ways to work around the limitation.[/quote] If I'm able to hold 24 shots in my sniper I don't feel limited at all. Yes we tried limiting specials, but we didn't limit them enough. Fix the issue of just swapping weapons to get ammo and there won't be a work around. They spam the specials because they have the ammo to do so. You can't spam a shotgun if it only has 3 shots. Which seems more op: a sniper with 4 rounds, or a sniper with 24 rounds. And buffing primaries isn't the only answer, I don't want this game to become a CoD clone if our only answer is to keep buffing primaries. Specials do in fact have too much freedom because of the abundance in ammo. Look at how Halo did it. The primary weapons time to kill was slow. Snipers could two shot the body to get a kill, same in Destiny. But in Halo you were heavily limited on that weapon. You didn't start with it, you only had a small amount of ammo, and you would lose it if you died. In Destiny you start with a full clip, special crates spawn frequently enough to give you at least 6 or more rounds per pickup. The specials, except sidearms, are doing their jobs of killing fast as they were meant to, but they kill too many fast. Image if Heavies didn't have this limitation and they spawned as frequently as special. The mindset of the community would be to nerf the heavies instead of limit them. [quote]For me, I don't see shotguns, snipers, or any special as over powered, I see them as over used. A long while back we faced an issue, people were using their specials far more than their primaries. With a following patch they fixed it to ensure that primaries would be used more... or did they? [spoiler]Bungie Weekly Update - 04/09/2015 https://www.bungie.net/7_Bungie-Weekly-Update---04092015/en/News/News?aid=12753 This update mentioned some things about special ammo and their goals for it. [quote]Kevin: At the highest level, we had a few goals in mind: [b] Make Special ammo a more precious resource in Crucible[/b] Further solidify Heavy ammo's role in the Crucible [b]Further improve the balance of encounters by limiting high-damage weapons[/b][/quote] or [quote]Or, as Mr. Fruit put it earlier this week: [b]Shotgun violence runs rampant in the Crucible.[/b] Can you ease his mind with some details? Kevin: The recent update to sandbox balance was the first step. Creating a new system to manage ammo drops will enable us to adjust the Crucible experience without altering other activities in your Director. [b]We believe that making ammo more scarce and important will provide players with more choices and more memorable encounters in Crucible.[/b][/quote] and then there is: [quote] Kevin: Special Ammo will spawn less frequently, it will take longer to pick up, there will be less crates located on the map, and the bricks you find will provide you with less ammo. I’ll save the stats and gory details for the Patch Notes. [Editor’s Note: Coming very soon to a blog article near you!] [b] We wanted players to really think about how and when they should use their ammo.[/b] The hope is that you’ll ask yourself questions like: [b]"Is this snipe worth it right now?"[/b] [b] "Should I really shotgun rush these players?"[/b] "Should I conserve ammo until the next crate?”[/quote] [/spoiler] Yet with the idea of making special ammo more precious we still see people using only the special weapons still. [quote]"Is this snipe worth it right now?"[/quote] You don't ask yourself this because you're running around with at least 8 shots and the next ammo drop will be in 7 seconds to give you 4-5 more shots. [quote]"Should I really shotgun rush these players?"[/quote] Well, seeing as I can carry at least 16 shots with my shotgun, this is never a question. People can claim that others are just scrubs by shotgun rushing, or pussies by camping with a sniper. But what if that shotgunner had only 2 shot available to him? He would have had to wait for the right time to use it to get 2 kills. Or the sniper had only 1 shot left? He would have needed the right angle and right opportunity to make that shot worth it. Using a special weapon for a special situation. Yet we are given so much special ammo it is not that precious, even skilled people can stack up on ammo to a large capacity of shots. By using a certain weapon so much an impression is made, then claimed to be over powered when it is not, it is over used. This won't stop the shotgun nerf though, that boat has already sailed. But even with them being nerfed they will still be used to large extents because of the availability given to them through special ammo pickups. If a nerf would come to special ammo, I would advise not reducing the amount of ammo special weapons can carry, but how much they can pick up in crucible. Instead of giving 6 shotgun shots, or 5 sniper shots, give 2. It will not effect the performance of the weapon, but it will effect the availability and use of it. PvE players would be happy too with a nerf that doesn't effect them. That is my input, call me what you want, scrub, baby, idiot, I don't care. This has been the one and only main issue [b]I[/b] see in crucible, and you can disagree with me if you want. But if you agree, please [u]bump[/u] and [u]like[/u] so we can focus on the real issue.[/quote] People may think that we limited special ammo, I say we didn't limit them enough. If they can be used enough to replace their primaries for an entire match, then they do in fact have too much freedom.

Titanfall was able to deal with OHK weapons effectively without having to limit ammo. In fact, the game didn't even have to treat them as a special situation. You could use a sniper as your primary...but mid-range weapons would kill you fast enough to keep you at a respectful distance....and elevation. You could use a shotgun as your primary...but try to use it as anything other than an ambush weapon around control points and in-and-around builidings.....and you wont' live long enough to regret it. Carbines and SMGs would teach you the error of your ways. We have a special weapon spamming problem in this game, because there is simply NO DISADVANTAGE to taking the games' OHK weapons and running around and using them as all-purpose weapons. Until there is a disadvantage to equipping these weapons there will be no way of stopping people from spamming them.

I blame their lead Jon Weisnewski. I heard this guy talking on crucible radio. He clearly does not have a clue as to what to do with the weapon systems. Removing the Special ammo crates and dropping the max ammo reserves would help entirely. Everyone wants to keep the Time To Kill very low I get that. In Halo you just had to be great with grenades, a well placed grenade and a headshot from your BR and done. I can mop up with a primary and a well placed grenade in Destiny but once the snipers are in full effect and everyone has enough ammo in them. It goes back to sniper wars. At this rate I enjoy a good Scout vs Scout Rifle battle but PvP just isn't where it needs to be.

Agreed. I saw that same podcast(s) and was both deeply disturbed and frustrated by what I heard. Plus Sage Merrill was even worse. He just flat out pissed me off as a primarily PVE player. But I vote for buffing primaries, because the only way to get rid of the special weapon spam otherwise is to go all the way and REMOVE special weapon ammo from the game entirely....and basically handle it like you do heavy ammo. I don't want that, because that move will basically destroy the current weapon system, and any illusion of "choice". It will also make every game follow the same basic script. 1. Fight with primaries until special drops. 2. Fight for special. 3. Spam special weapons until the ammo runs out. 4. Return to step one, until heavy ammo drops 5. Fight for heavy 6 Spam heavy weapons until ammo runs out 7. Return to step one....or end game. That will get really old....really fast.

I agree mostly with you. I think Primary damage should be balanced among primaries, but not buffed. Pulse Rifles at this rate are just not where they should be. They can hardly compete. Limiting the Special ammo to maybe 1 crate when heavies spawn could almost work, but I mean in 3v3 if everyone has a sniper or shotgun even at 6 rounds starting the match then grabbing 6 more rounds during special/heavy crate time still gives the team on average 36 rounds between the team. That is still too much Special ammo. I would be happy to see you spawn with a basic payload and little to no extra special ammo crates. You wouldn't think about much else other than the Primary vs Primary meta. It will show which Primaries outperform the others. Then Bungie will have to actually do more work to balance out Hand Cannon vs Scout Rifle vs Auto Rifle vs Pulse Rifle (which honestly wouldn't be that hard to do if they actually put a team to it). I don't think they feel like doing that. Jon Weisnewski actually was like " I think it's great for certain weapons to have their own season" AKA "I can't get this sh!t right". Their most recent attempt to fix the special ammo was a total bust. We need basic payloads, not hordes of special ammo. Ridiculous. I miss a good ole Primary gun fight. I remember when the Suros emerged in the crucible, everyone was like NOOOO f*** f*** WHYYYY, but you were at least being killed by a primary and not 1 shot by a sniper or shotgun all day. lol I have seen guys go through an entire match and never fire a primary. Don't have to, control the green boxes, snipe, Rez snipe. Snipe some more, then make video, add music, upload to youtube. Sniper Montage. Woo. I tend to check the stats on players I have a rough match against and to my surprise it says Best Weapon : Sniper, or Shotgun. If a special is your best weapon out of 50,000-80,000 kills then that lets me know there is wayyyyy too much special ammo to be had.

I have been thinking and saying this around the forums. Snipers are fine, the issue is people can run then as primaries. They need to reduce reserved ammo for pvp

Reducing the ammo wont' fix it. You either need to REMOVE the ammo from the game, and treat it just like heavy. Or you need to buff primary weapons to the point where they can kill fast enough to make snipers and shotgun rushers back off.

Making the time to kill faster on primaries would make this game ever closer to being a CoD clone. And if these primaries were that strong, nobody would ever bother using specials. You have to realize that specials are doing what they were designed for, a high-damage weapon. Reducing ammo and fixing the trick of swapping weapons to get ammo would in fact fix this. Even Bungie claimed that they wanted to: "Further improve the balance of encounters by limiting high-damage weapons." They were limited before and it helped, but they were not limited enough to prevent this current situation. We faced this same issue months ago where people were using specials as primaries because the special ammo spawn more frequently backed then. They reduced the special ammo and it helped a lot to bring balance. Now that issue has resurfaced again. Making primaries either too strong or too weak can break them, but if specials were limited as they should've been, we wouldn't need to worry about constant primary vs special issues. Specials can't be situational if they have 26 shots with ammo crates ready nearby, that much ammo is too unrestricted and allows people to use them far more than their primaries. Reducing special ammo would fix it.

Call of Duty, Titanfall, and Battlefield have the brisk TTKs that they have for a REASON. That is the price you have to pay if you are going to have a weapon system where you allow people to freely choose what weapons they wish to take into a fight...and choose when they whish to use them. Unless the TTK is brisk, you will have a balance problem between multi-fire weapons....and OHK weapons like snipers and shotguns. People will ALWAYS choose the most efficient (fastest killing) weapon at their disposal. So what happens whine primary weapon TTK gets to slow....is that OHK stop being ***situational*** weapons as intended. Instead-----like they have always been in Destiny----they get SPAMMED as all-purpose weapons. For the simple reason that there is no disadvantage to using them. Limiting the ammo isn't the only way to force OHK weapons to be situational. You just have to create a significant disadvantage to them if you try to use them outside of that situation. The problem with shotguns in Destiny isn't that there's too much ammo..... Its that I can take my shotgun and RUN AT YOU WITH IT FROM MID-RANGE....get into shotgun range....and pull the trigger.... Before you can kill me with any of the game's primary weapons. The problem with snipers isn't that there's too much ammo. The problem is that I can spam a body shot on you at close range without really having to ADS. I can shrug off multiple head shots from mid-range and even long range primaries...while I go for the killing headshot, or the body shot that forces my opponent to disengage and take cover. ALL the problems revolve around the fact that primaries in this game kill to slowly.... People like to make jokes about "CoD TTK." But CoD doesn't have the shotgun spamming problems that Destiny can't get rid of...for a reason.

This gameplay more like Halo and nowhere near CoD, Titanfall, or Battlefield. Bungie made Halo and they were able to balance the high-powered weapons there but somehow can't do it here and the only solution is to turn into a CoD, Titanfall, Battlefield clone. If Destiny becomes like that, I will never touch this game again. I want to play Destiny, I want to play a Bungie game, not a twitch shooter. Plus you keep using the same stupid excuse of spamming weapon, YOU CAN'T SPAM IT IF IT HAS LITTLE TO NO AMMO! Halo didn't need to become a twitch shooter to balance sniper and shotguns, they made them pickups. You'd have very little ammo and you would lose it upon death. They LIMITED those powerful weapons and it worked. Destiny snipers operate a lot like Halo snipers just with NO LIMITATIONS. This gameplay more like Halo and nowhere near CoD, Titanfall, or Battlefield.

1. Yes it does. But the problem is that Destiny has a WEAPON SYSTEM of the sort that you find in CoD, Battlefield and Titanfall. A weapon system that is progressive, with differing perks and abiltiies...and that lets people choose what wepaons they wish to take into a fight and fight with. 2. Halo's PVP worked because it DIDN"T ALLOW choice. You got dropped into the game with the weapons you had...and you fought with them. Even if they were totally unsuited for the task. If you wanted anything more powerful...you had to fight with what you had to control it.....then you got to use it for a brief period..and it was gone. So there was no NEED to balance multi-fire weapons against OHK weapons...and spamming wasn't a problem because the more powerful weapons werent' around very long. SO THE SLOW PRIMARY WEAPON TTK DIDN'T CAUSE THE PROBLEMS THAT IT IS CAUSING NOW IN DESTINY. ...and Bungie is struggling because they want a play style in PVP that is INCOMPATIBLE with the weapon system they've designed into the game. 3. You're certainly entitled to your taste in games. But the fact of the matter is that the only way this game will EVERY be balanced (with its current weapon system) is either one of two ways. a. You buff primary weapon TTK BACK up to what they were at the launch of vanilla Destiny. Which will allow primary weapons to kill fast enough to force shotguns and snipers BACK into being situational weapons, without having to break anything or restrict weapon choice. or.... b. You basically have to BREAK the current weapon system and basically FORCE it to behave like Halo's. Which means you just remove special ammo from the game entirely. Remove it...and drop it into the game at specific time and locations like the game currently does with heavy ammo. That way you fix the spamming problems by effectively removing special weapons from the game, except for those times when their ammo is dropped in. But if you do that....you essentially destroy weapon choice...and you severely narrow the range of play options and play styles. Those are your options. NOthing else is going to work, because you cant' force people to play with slow-killing weapons if there is ANY way not to do so. ...and to the extent that this game IS balanced right now, its because Bungie has been slowly imposing option "b" on the game.

Limiting special is still needed before tackling primaries: [quote][quote]Kevin: At the highest level, we had a few goals in mind: [b] Make Special ammo a more precious resource in Crucible[/b] Further solidify Heavy ammo's role in the Crucible [b]Further improve the balance of encounters by limiting high-damage weapons[/b][/quote] or [quote]Or, as Mr. Fruit put it earlier this week: [b]Shotgun violence runs rampant in the Crucible.[/b] Can you ease his mind with some details? Kevin: The recent update to sandbox balance was the first step. Creating a new system to manage ammo drops will enable us to adjust the Crucible experience without altering other activities in your Director. [b]We believe that making ammo more scarce and important will provide players with more choices and more memorable encounters in Crucible.[/b][/quote] and then there is: [quote] Kevin: Special Ammo will spawn less frequently, it will take longer to pick up, there will be less crates located on the map, and the bricks you find will provide you with less ammo. I’ll save the stats and gory details for the Patch Notes. [Editor’s Note: Coming very soon to a blog article near you!] [b] We wanted players to really think about how and when they should use their ammo.[/b] The hope is that you’ll ask yourself questions like: [b]"Is this snipe worth it right now?"[/b] [b] "Should I really shotgun rush these players?"[/b] "Should I conserve ammo until the next crate?”[/quote][/quote] Bungie themselves wanted specials to be far less used, to make us play conservative with them. With how much ammo is available to me I don't have to play conservative at all, which is bad and not limited. [quote] [b] We wanted players to really think about how and when they should use their ammo.[/b] The hope is that you’ll ask yourself questions like: [b]"Is this snipe worth it right now?"[/b] [b] "Should I really shotgun rush these players?"[/b] "Should I conserve ammo until the next crate?”[/quote] You don't ask yourself any of these question because you are capable of getting 28+ rounds easily in one match. That is not a limitation at all. [quote] You basically have to BREAK the current weapon system and basically FORCE it to behave like Halo's. Which means you just remove special ammo from the game entirely.[/quote] Inferno does this with special by making you start with no ammo. And the ammo doesn't need to be completely removed for it to be better. Like I said in one of my previous comments you probably didn't read, I would've just just cut the amount of ammo you get from each crate. You wouldn't get 6-8 rounds per crate, but 2-3 rounds. It would limit the specials much more without entirely breaking the system. People would still have a reason to use specials but not as much as it is used now. You can buff primaries, but if I'm able to have 28+ sniper rounds I wouldn't need to get close enough for you to shoot me. I could headshot you or bodyshot you all I want without ever caring about my ammo because I can easily restock it with just a few crates. The fact remains, special have too much freedom. It happened in the past where everyone was using them as primaries and it is happening again now because they were not limited enough. I highly doubt that Bungie will ever buff all primaries back to the way they were, they don't really do that "revert all the buffs and nerfs." And even if they did, TLW wasn't changed all that much and MIDA was hardly changed at all, auto-rifles were a little too strong in vanilla and pulse rifles were garbage that were needing a serious buff. That would also mean they would revert all of their PvE damage buffs they gave as well because they can't separate PvP and PvE. So I'm am going for something they can change without it effecting PvE, something that they have done before but not hard enough, I don't dream big about changing everything to fit everything. The smallest change can bring a big difference. When Thorn was buffed, it was one small change that turned it into a meta weapon for six months. Bungie likes to change flow of battle, and adjusting special ammo would help with changing that flow without changing how the weapons perform. Snipers and shotguns would still be deadly but which would you prefer to have: to see them used to the same extent now, or see them used half as much? It may not be the perfect fix but it is one step in the right direction. Primaries will still battle themselves for the role of meta, those nerfs and buffs wouldn't stop. But if specials are limited properly we wouldn't need to worry about them and focus on balancing primaries. https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/182264454/0/0 [quote]Halo's PVP worked because it DIDN"T ALLOW choice. [/quote] Hale Reach, another game Bungie made, allowed choice even if was small. In some game modes like Invasion you could a variety of loadouts.

You can't compare Inferno to other play modes, because the lack of RADAR has a huge effect on how people use and don't use particular weapons. The bottom line is that people will find a way to DEFEAT any moves you try to make to limit special ammo. They'll either resort to exotic weapons that generate it......or they'll take advantages of glitches (Sidearms)....or they'll simply memorize the the drop times-and-locations....and HOARD it. Which will make matters worse, because now you've taken a problem that was at least on a level playing field....and now given one side or the other a specific advantage. The play style that Bungie wants...and the weapon system they've designed the game around are simply NOT compatible. NO other shooter developer does this....and Bungie is going down in flames on this trying to reinvent the wheel. At some point they are going to have to accept reality and stop trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. They either need to accept that the whole needs to be SQUARE and buff primary weapons across the board and accept a shorter TTK.....or they need to go all-in on BREAKING the games original system, and go all the way in shaving the corners off the peg. NOTHNG ELSE is going to work. Because people will find any possible way of putting the fastest killing weapons in the game in their hands.

The glitches of of using sidearms to get ammo and swapping weapons to keep that ammo is a glitch that needs to be fixed. Swapping any weapon should result in zero ammo as they intended. The exotic weapons that regenerate would at least feel exotic then because I currently don't need to worry about ammo on any weapon. And most people are just using Ice Breaker so they can swap weapons and keep their ammo, again a glitch that needs fixing. Invective doesn't regen it's ammo that fast anyway, every 20 seconds, and the impact is not that high. Those two weapons would be the only ones in need of consideration in PvP as the regen is very helpful in PvE. Perhaps make the regen only occur in PvE activities or something. [quote]You can't compare Inferno to other play modes,[/quote] I can compare Inferno because of how it changed the use of special ammo in regards of how other modes use special ammo, it is not an entirely different game. All it did was take out radar and start with no special ammo, it is still Destiny. So apparently I can't compare Destiny with Destiny. [quote]NOTHNG ELSE is going to work. Because people will find any possible way of putting the fastest killing weapons in the game in their hands.[/quote] When they nerfed special ammo the first time it worked because people were using them far less. Same with buffing all primaries, people will still find the fast ttk weapon, AND, people will still hardsope sniper lanes all day long. You primaries may be a bit stronger, but my sniper can still one shot you in the head from a safe distance 16 times before I have to grab ammo. Doctrine can already tear up shotgun rushers fairly quickly, except most maps have very small areas so the shotgunner doesn't have to run that far to get to you. Buff the primaries, but they would still be close enough to close the distance and shoot you before you can kill them. It is different on maps like Cathedral of Dusk, but most people hate those large maps sadly so we don't see them that much. [quote]They either need to accept that the whole needs to be SQUARE and buff primary weapons across the board and accept a shorter TTK[/quote] Bungie will never do that, which why I'm going with the more practical and easier to reach solution. Small changes at a time is better than turning the game upside down. Bungie will not revert everything they have done. You have think like how they want the game to be made and make adjustments that coincide with it, something they have been known to do and can still do. They made adjustments to special ammo in the past to prevent people from using them as primaries, they can do that again. [quote]and now given one side or the other a specific advantage.[/quote] Special ammo crates spawn everywhere, not in one spot. Unless someone is a dick and pickups the ammo with no one around, or the enemy is guarding every single special crate on the map, everyone is on the same playing field with just a few shots that can help change the balance of the match in your teams favor. Not as much of a change as heavy but a little more frequent. [quote]or they'll simply memorize the the drop times-and-locations....and HOARD it.[/quote] People loved doing that in Halo, Bungie made Halo. Give people a reason to fight for something important. Plus there are multiple spots where the ammo spawns. It doesn't spawn like heavy where there are only two crates (which people hoard as well when it spawns). The special ammo wouldn't be too scare but also wouldn't be too plentiful. It would be treated as precious, just like Bungie would want. But 28+ rounds is not precious at all.

Bottomlline. You can either have a weapon system where you get to freely choose what weapon you fight with...and when you fight with it..... ....or you can have a weapon system that plays and feels like Halo. You can't have both. If you want the former....then you have to accept a shorter primary weapon TTK. NO way around it. If you want the latter....then you have to break the weapon system the game has to force it to behave like Halos. The only way to get that to happen in a sustainable fashion is to REMOVE special ammo from the game, and treat it like heavy ammo. Anything less...and we'll just keep getting what we've been getting for the last 18 months in this game.

It doesn't have to go to the extreme of removing special ammo entirely from the game. Even just reducing the ammo given from the crates by half would make a difference with out having to change everything. Inferno had it great by starting with no ammo at the start, a system that quite a few people claimed to like in my posts about special ammo changes, a system Bungie implemented into 3v3 game modes, but they didn't do it right by allowing it to apply only to the first round and not the rounds that followed. I feel like I have repeated myself with this so many times but you take it to the extreme of just remove them. I keep saying to just reduce special ammo, even if it just goes as far as 3/4, or half of the amount. The changes don't need to be EXTREME to make a difference. Some of the changes Bungie did with special ammo recently was correct, but not entirely, it had flaws. ToO: by allowing one team to keep their ammo after the first round pretty much negates the patch all together and gives the enemy an unfair advantage. It would've been better if every round they start with no special ammo. Everyone would be even. The trick of swapping special weapons just get ammo on another gun shouldn't be allowed. In vanilla whenever you swap special weapons you always get penalized by receiving zero ammo. Now people are basically cheating that system with the tricks they use now. Fix this cheating trick so they can't loophole the special ammo changes, they won't be able to use Ice Breaker to get ammo for their 1000-Yard Stare. Many minor changes that can result in a big difference in gameplay.

[i] "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. " -----Albert Einstein. [/i] For nearly two years----going all the way back to the ALPHA---- bungie has been trying to pound a square peg into a round hole doing the same things. A nerf here... a (rare) buff there....Limiting ammo here....taking it away there. Or finally just BREAKING certain special weapons when all else fails in order to maintina that long TTK. ...and it is NOT WORKING. ..and it is NOT GOING to work. Because everytime Bungie does this The community just moves ----in mass----to the NEXT most efficient (fastest killing) weapon that's available. Meanwhile the games weapons just get weaker and weaker. The game's PVE players just keep getting angrier and angrier and-----with the exception of the range drop-offs----we are NO closer to a balanced weapon system than when we started. Never mind that I told them that the range drop-offs were neded all the way back during the -blam!-ING BETA. ...and you're at a point now there there is NOTHING left to break, and we saw what happened when Bungie tried to limit special ammo for 3v3s. The sad irony in all of that is that people PREDICTED that what happened would happen. Hell I even predicted the current meta that would emerge out of the December patch. That the breaking of shotguns would lead to a meta dominated by snpers..... ...and here we are. About to do more of the same....and expecting a different outcome than what we got all the other times we tried it.