This argument is horribly stated. School yard bullying, that's what you're standing on? A cheat is a cheat. In a multiplayer game, it affects everyone. It forces everyone to use that cheat to level the sting field. Who do you think wants the cheats to stay in, the Activision Execs or the Bungie Devs? You side with the greedy execs?

Nope. A tattletale. A grass. A snitch. The one that tries to make themselves look good by saying everyone else is bad and doesn't do it 'right', even though it is just different. Sure, it may not be 'as intended', but FFS it is a game. Tell me how it hurts YOU if we push a boss off a cliff. How does "let people play the way they want" translate into "I support greedy execs"? If this was something that HURT other players I would be the first to condemn it. All you are saying is that because you don't like doing it that way they should punish those who do. Trying to make others in the world play by your beliefs and rules when what they were doing wasn't hurting anyone is intolerant. Why am I even writing this? I have pushed him just as many times as I have killed him legit. How about this? They fix Atheon before the rest of this shit you are crying about? That fight is so bugged it makes the game unfun.

Tattletale? Snitch? That is adorable. Once you graduate high school, you'll find those words lose there effect. Not that they've ever affected me. I will never condone cheating. I will fight for a better way. Cheating is a tool for the weak minded, it is a tool for a follower. Reward for doing well at a difficult task. Remove the cheats, reward fairly. That is my aim.

I graduated high school 20 years ago. I know the difference between 'there' and 'their'. But THANKS for trying to disempower me by insinuating that is am young. You are an intolerant prick and will probably resort to gay or gender slander next. I am against cheating too, in general. Never put god mode on doom? (wouldn't recommend it, boring). When people push and park in cheese spots it isn't cheating and the fact that you can't see that makes this while discussion pointless. Get off your moral high horse and find something else to argue about. Oh, while you are at it chill out and stop being such a stuck up f^ckwit. The 'knights code of honour' does not sit well on the shoulders of a bigot such as yourself. See yah!

I am intolerant, of cheating. You are adding in accusations of bigotry, homophobia and sexism. You caught a spelling error and even made that part of your defense. That's a lot of fake padding to justify your cause. Reading your last statement, I would say your definition of chill out differs from mine. Calling cheating anything other than what it is, is an embellishment. This post is about removing cheating from the Vault of Glass Raid. That is the goal.

No, not accusations. Observations. You are a self righteous crusader. You try to make yourself look good by saying others are bad... Try to make out now that I have put you down or been superior in any way. I haven't delegated you to a minority or said you were inferior to make my point (pretty much the base of your entire argument). But... And this is really important so read carefully... THIS IS A GAME Soooooooooooooo, who gives a shit? I thought games were about chilling out, relaxing and catching up with friends. You still haven't told me how this behaviour hurts you. Keep talking, you still haven't actually said anything. Go get on your moral high horse while I will try and get something else changed in this game... Like the bugs. That is probably a more worth while cause.

Fixing the cheats is a more worthwhile cause then fixing bugs. Cheats affect everyone in a multiplayer game. Look at the posts from others that want the cheats removed, you'll find justifications there. Let's say all of your bug reports get fixed, would you advocate for removing the cheats then?

Sigh. Others have said stuff? Really. You tell me how you are getting hurt. YOU tell ME. I still disagree that it is cheating. Cheating implies breaking the rules. Sitting in an advantageous spot is not cheating. I work with kids. We give them a simple set of rules to play with...the clever ones quickly work out ways to win easier. Not against the rules, just lateral thinking. Thinking should be encouraged, inventive problem solving rewarded. No rules broken? Not cheating. Simple example: How many people can you fit on a carpet square with both of their feet on the square? Two kids hug and balance... Six sit in a circle and put their feet on the mat. Pass the ball around the circle as quick as you can, sit down when you have had the ball. When everyone is sitting I will give you a time. Go as fast as you can. One circle starts throwing the ball around. The other circle just passes it to the person on the left. Bam. Would you call those kids cheats? If so, stay out of education. Fix the bugs. Build a better challenge. Cheating is putting in codes and hacking the code to break the rules of the game. Using the environment to your advantage is clever. Face it, I like this game, but there are some sloppy design features here.

Bungie banned players for taking advantage of code that allowed for heavy ammo at the start of a match. Now that they fixed the code to prevent that, they are allowing those banned back into PvP. Yes the code allowed this however, it was still a cheat, it needed to be removed. Atheon was easily pushed off the edge of the arena floor. The code allowed this however, it was a cheat, it needed to be removed. The raid was advertised as a hard task. It was sold as being challenging. As long as the safety net of the cheats exists, it will never be a challenge. As another post from another gamer has stated, the cheats are not just an option, they have become the standard. I have not had a raid run since the cheats became public where there isn't an argument over cheat versus legit. Others have posted the same problem. Is cheating a lesson that should be taught? Is it a lesson that should be reinforced? Cheating breeds dependence, it breeds welfare. For those with a strong inner character, the thought of cheating is abhorrent.

Yes, but you cannot judge others by your own standards. Play the way YOU want, let others play the way THEY want. Cheating should never be encouraged or rewarded (not sure if you are saying that is what I implied). I don't cheese and I don't cheat. My code makes me solo a nightfall each week with no 'safe' spots. When others do it I just shrug and get on with playing. Parting words, as I am tired of this stagnant conversation, try to relax and have fun. You were actually nice to converse with once you found your manners. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on some points (the ammo glitch and the self revive glitch are pretty close to cheating IMO. Obviously against the way the game was made. Sitting on a rock? Eh.)