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Edited by Stalwart: 4/25/2013 2:48:34 PM
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The Right to Bear Arms: Part 1

Hi all. I want to have a cool and calm talk about America and gun control. I know this is a very emotional topic, but I am going to try to keep emotion out of the debate. The second amendment ensures the right of individuals to own guns. Recently the US has been rocked with highly publicized abuse of the second amendment. The criminally and mentally unstable cannot and should not at any time own a gun. Yet somehow these people acquire guns, occasionally from a legal source. Gun control advocates cry for more regulation and fewer guns, frequently citing evil crimes committed with guns. However, they ignore the good acts of law abiding gun owners, who have stopped significantly more violent crimes than homicides committed. The gun is a tool; what matters is the person who uses it. Although a few people with guns have caused great pain and grief, law-abiding civilians should be allowed to make personal decisions about guns, because legal gun owners can help keep our country safe. Guns are a very emotional subject; before forming an opinion about them, it is necessary to know the related facts and statistics. Uninformed opinions provide no logical resolution; no true action should be taken based on such an opinion. Many anti-gun articles cite majority polls as reasons to enact stronger gun laws. However, this is not a true statistic—it is an opinion poll and cannot be used to prove an argument correct or to form an opinion. Many people simply say they favor stronger gun laws—possibly without defining or understanding the laws. In Guns and Crime, a compendium of clashing views on guns, one article cites that “65% of respondents favor banning assault rifles” as a reason to ban “assault rifles” (Watkins 35). However, the term “assault rifles” was not defined, nor were real statistics and facts used. This is a fallacy, specifically an appeal to the people. Statistics consist of cold hard numbers and facts, not polls of opinions about a vaguely described subject. It doesn’t matter what everyone thinks—what matters is the truth. Statistically, even though guns are easily the most lethal tool a person can use to commit homicide, there are actually fewer murders committed with guns than the average person would be led to believe. Farley, Robertson, and Kiely of FactCheck.org tell us that gun homicides have gone down, with only “11,078 in 2010, 3.59 per 100,000, the lowest rate since 1981.” (Gun Rhetoric vs. Gun Facts) Gun owners have prevented more violent crimes with guns than murderers have used guns to kill. Civilians prevent violence in our country by using guns to protect other citizens, or themselves. In fact, civilians use guns two million times a year to prevent violence (Watkins 28). This includes possible mass murders that never occurred—parallel events to the Aurora and Sandy Hook shootings that didn’t happen. Many people don’t realize how many guns there really are in America. There are an estimated 270-300 million guns owned in America, close to one gun per citizen (Bradford). However, ownership statistics don’t quite match up with the number of weapons: “47 percent of Americans… report owning a gun” (Bradford). These statistics are probably skewed because it has become unpopular to own a gun, so fewer owners report that they do. Though it may seem like too many, there were “88.8 [guns] per 100 people in 2007” (Farley, Robertson, Keily). It is doubtful that one would find 88 people with guns in a crowd of 100. Many gun enthusiasts own multiple weapons: hence the reason for the inflated figure. Next up tomorrow: Good gun control laws!

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  • If everyone was given the right to bear arms, where would it stop? Soon enough you'll see people with Gorilla arms, squirrel arms or even Whale arms. How the hell are those people meant to put a shirt on, OP? [i]Think[/i].

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    • [quote]The second amendment ensures the right of individuals to own guns.[/quote]The "right of individuals" is only true as of the Heller case in 2008. Before then, according to the Supreme Court, the "militia clause" trumped "bear arms" clause, which meant only state-militias had a right to bear arms. [url=http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/jeffrey-toobin-second-amendment.html]You can thank the NRA for that "reinterpretation"[/url].[quote]For more than a hundred years, the answer was clear, even if the words of the amendment itself were not. The text of the amendment is divided into two clauses and is, as a whole, ungrammatical: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” The courts had found that the first part, the “militia clause,” trumped the second part, the “bear arms” clause. In other words, according to the Supreme Court, and the lower courts as well, the amendment conferred on state militias a right to bear arms—but did not give individuals a right to own or carry a weapon.[/quote] The second paragraph is a bit of a mess. You argue opinion polls cannot be used to form an opinion, yet they can, because that's what an opinion poll is - a poll of opinions. What it seems like you are alluding to is the use of opinion polls to show that gun control should be enforced (to whatever degree) instead of looking at research (the statistics) on the matter. Again, this was evident in the final couple of sentences where you bring up argumentum ad populum without tying that into a context where such opinion polls would not be relevant, such as constitutional interpretations of the second amendment. If you can do that, you'll have a far more persuasive argument. [quote]In fact, civilians use guns two million times a year to prevent violence (Watkins 28).[/quote]Since you argue it is "necessary to know the related facts and statistics", you should know this particular statistic has been debunked by the Department of Justice. [quote]A big part of the gun advocates’ world view appears to be the belief that they are surrounded by criminal threats that they need to be heavily armed to ward off. And so, virtually any time gun safety legislation comes up, they jump to the argument that stricter gun laws will reduce the ability of law-abiding people to defend themselves. In support, they point to a [url=http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html]series of surveys[/url], including the most prominent one by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck]Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck[/url], that estimated there to be anywhere from 760,000 to 3.6 million defensive gun uses (“DGUs”) every year. By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice’s [url=http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/0130/Gun-control-101-Do-Americans-often-use-firearms-in-self-defense]Bureau of Justice Statistics (“BJS”)[/url] found that there were around 62,200 DGUs to protect people, and another 20,000 DGUs to protect property, every year. In a [url=https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf]1997 report[/url], the U.S. DOJ’s National Institute of Justice (“NIJ”) thoroughly debunked the surveys by Kleck and others that found as many as 3.6 million DGUs per year. As the NIJ report explained, the results of the Kleck surveys would suggest the “absurd” conclusion that more women defended themselves with a gun from -blam!- than the total number of -blam!-s that occurred. Similarly, if the survey results were accurate, it would mean that 36% of robberies, and 19% of aggravated assaults were warded off by a DGU. And, most unrealistically, it would mean that approximately 130,000 criminals were wounded or killed by a DGU. Such high levels of DGUs would not only be readily obvious to the police, statisticians, and the media, but it would also likely drive a lot of criminals out of business. Yet there is no evidence suggesting anywhere near such high levels of DGUs. The NIJ report also identifies three likely flaws that lead the surveys by Kleck and others to vastly overstate the number of DGUs per year. First, the estimates are based on extrapolations from very small sample sizes, which makes the results inherently unreliable and subject to the impact of false positives. Second, some people are likely to overstate or falsely answer questions regarding DGUs in an effort to impress the interviewer or due to actual confusion. And third, many individuals who tell a survey taker that they engaged in a DGUs might not be innocent victims of crime, but instead may be engaged in criminal activity that led to the need to use a gun in self-defense. A 2000 Harvard study by Hemenway, Azreal, and Miller found that [url=http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/4/263.full]gun owners use their guns to threaten or intimidate far more often than in legitimate self-defense, and their panel of criminal court judges – who were instructed to treat the gun owners’ reports as factually accurate – found most claims were not legal self-defense[/url]. In short, the claims of high levels of DGUs made by gun advocates are shaky at best.[/quote][url=http://www.winningprogressive.org/shooting-down-more-nra-myths]Source[/url]

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      • MMMmmm Bear Arms....

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      • I read the thread title and this is what keeps popping into my head.

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        • [quote]The Right to [b]Bear[/b] Arms[/quote]

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          • Edited by Gruntzilla24: 4/25/2013 7:27:38 PM
            Background checks are unconstitutional. So obviously there is something outdated about that part of the Constitution. When the constitution was written, there weren't mass shootings, or even gun crime for that matter.

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          • Edited by M37h3w3: 4/25/2013 6:35:39 PM
            Not sure if we really need a background refresher on this. Current problems right now are legislators putting up gun control laws that don't actually attempt to fix the problem and other legislators screaming bloody murder over the ones that try to and want them thrown out entirely. On top of that the ATF is apparently massively understaffed, is without a department head for years now, and has their hands tied by the Tihart Amendment. No one has been able to explain to me how universal background checks lead to gun confiscation. And frankly, it's a logical fallacy (slippery slope) to say that they do.

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            • So, here's the thing about the Second Amendment and gun control laws - either the Second Amendment is clear in its wording that no gun ownership shall be infringed and American citizens should have access to any and all firearms and weapons, making any gun control legislation unconstitutional... ...or it isn't and gun control laws are just fine. Which one is it?

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              • Can i ask one unrelated but sorta related question? Why when a black person kills with a gun, they are a thug. When an Islamic kills with a gun, they are a terrorist. But when a white person kills with a gun they are emotionally unstable.... never really got that.

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                • [quote]I want to have a cool and calm talk about America and gun control.[/quote] Haha, good luck with that.

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                • One thing to consider: When the amendment was passed the only guns were flintlocks and such like which weren't exactly the most reliable and efficient weapons. Since then guns have become a lot more effective at what they do so I think it should naturally follow that they be treated with more caution.

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                  • [quote]Next up tomorrow: gun statistics.[/quote] Here's a gun statistic for you: three-out-of-five gunshot-deaths in America are suicides. In other words, gun owners are 50% more likely to kill themselves than they are to kill someone else. [url=http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/01/20/the-gun-toll-ignoring-suicide/xeWBHDHEvvagfkRlU3CfZJ/story.html]Link.[/url]

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                    • [quote]This is actually a research paper I wrote for my sophomore year of high school.[/quote][quote]sophomore year of high school[/quote] lel

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                    • I typed out what I thought was a decent reply to this, then my phone decided I was hitting cancel instead of post...FML

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                      • [quote]Hi all. I want to have a cool and calm talk about America and gun control.[/quote] Good luck with that OP, you're gonna need it.

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                        • Picture is extremely relevant.

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                          • [quote] law abiding gun owners, who have stopped significantly more violent crimes than homicides committed. [/quote]Claims without a valid source aren't valid. I'd be very interested in this were it true.

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