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10/18/2014 7:38:53 AM
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Atheon Teleport Mechanics Update Feedback
I have not complained about any changes to this game.
- Loot Cave - okay, patch it (and you gave us a fun Easter Egg at that).
- Gun nerfs/buffs - you guys know best, you can watch how we play and address what's needed to provide multiple alternatives with weapon selection in PVP.
- Templar column - Even though I backed this as a "strategy", I only tried to help *one* group that insisted on it and my group has always had dedicated roles in that fight. We played the ground game and continue to do so, we're better and faster at it.
- Atheon "baby bumpers" - Yes, please. They're not necessary when you have a good team who play well together and know roles that we have unanimously determined by preference and vote. I didn't support the bug that broke him.
- Atheon's teleport behavior? - Please, Bungie, please. Most successful Raid teams have found that different members are better at different roles. This is a TEAM event. I, for one, am the dedicated Relic-holder for that fight. We've watched gameplay mechanics, we developed a system, a strategy, to break our group into two. Portal team does what needs to be done in the portals, and Gatekeeper team survives the hordes of suicidal Harpies, opens the necessary gate, and generally does the most damage to Atheon once Portal team is out, because we're busy getting ready to go back in again.
[b]The Atheon teleport change will break not only our strategy, but most successful teams' strategies.[/b] The fight will be utter chaos. Not everyone plays the same role in a team - that's what makes a TEAM. If we could all perform the same roles, we'd be interchangeable. Why stay together? Our group dynamics are great and we all get along well, but the glitches in Atheon's fight were tough enough to get through without someone raging. The deaths of a single dedicated member alone can make the fight unwinnable.
[b]We are using legitimate strategy there, Bungie.[/b] There is no unfair advantage, no taking advantage of unfair enemy behavior (some predictability is not a bad thing!), we just got our team 100% set this week! Not everyone can be expected to perform the same in a team. We all have strengths and weaknesses and that is part of what brings us together. [b]We fill in each other's gaps in playstyle to complete the group.[/b]
Please rethink this Atheon patch. "Baby bumpers" are great. Make the community fight for their victory! But don't completely trash mechanics that aren't broken. I know six of me could not beat this Raid, nor could six of any other gamer I know. Level playing fields are great, but don't take away our individual strengths.
Sorry for the long post. I have reposted this in the Feedback forum where it belongs, as I've asked others who post in the #destiny category. [b]I've always supported you guys and plan on continuing to... Don't break the Raid, please![/b]
English
#feedback
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I'm gravedigging. The vault does still need attention anyway.
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10 RepliesI also had a lot of positive feedback on the weekly update thread so I'm gonna copy paste my comment here since it's in line with what I said also. So on one hand you say "matchmaking for raids won't work because you need a strong organized team to complete the raid" On the other hand you say "we're going to completely randomize the encounter so strategy is out the window" These are in complete contradiction of each other and make no sense. You are giving the players so few choices that your open world plan (even though it's not open world) is becoming very linear at an alarming rate. Why can't I strengthen my fireteam by playing my role? Why should I have to play according to a very restrictive set of rules? Why can't I sit on the very sniper perches that your snipers do? Why are you micro managing my experience and sucking what little joy is left out of this game? Honestly can you not see that with every patch you guys are driving a wedge between your player base and the game? It has to stop. Like anyone still playing I want destiny to succeed so bad. It literally breaks my gaming heart to see something with so much potential be killed by it's very creator. With every patch you have further diminished the PVE co-op experience almost to the point of me wondering why am I still bothering to care about this game. I don't speak for everyone and won't pretend to, but I would like to think I have my finger on the pulse of the people I know and play with. The reception to these kinds of patches isn't good. My whole clan is one decent game away from washing our hands of Destiny. I don't want to but it seems that I will soon have little choice. I'm a grown ass man with a family and I'll be damned if I let someone else tell me how to play a game I paid for. Strategy isn't a bug it's a well thought out plan for success. Pushing him off is a bug, moving my fireteam to a tactical position to gain an advantage is not. I've tried to be as cordial as possible with this and hope you take the time to relay this to the people who make these terrible decisions but my instincts tell me it will fall on deaf ears. DEEJ I implore you to convince these people to stop before it's too far gone and the world of Destiny is a story of what could have been and not one of becoming legend. Edit: from the tremendous amount of likes I've received on this post it would seem I have my finger on the pulse of YOUR community as well DEEJ. you know why? Real gamers know what real gamers want. Maybe those devs are coding geniuses but they obviously have 0 clue about enjoyable experiences. Someone in that studio has to stop being a yes man and simply say "enough".
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1 ReplyAgreed. a good group should have everyone able to do all roles in my opinion as it can make or break a run when things go bad because vog is notoriously bugged. With that said random teleports is a bad idea. The raid is hard enough as it is and I honestly would rather not spend my hard earned weekend hours spent wiping so that everyone gains mastery of every role
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I'm also the Relic holder of my clan, and this teleport change will really mess things up for my group. I'm honestly pretty amazing with it, and my other team members have found the other roles that they are amazing at as well. If they implement this, it will screw up our whole strat for the raid. Interestingly enough, no patch notes today (monday)....
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My two cents: Bungie, stop removing player ability to complete the Raid. While I won't mourn the removal of knocking Atheon off the edge, I also feel that it is a solid strategy that should remain in the game, due to it's difficulty to pull off. I've been in there with a full group trying the tactic, and we still got killed several times. It echoes the so-called "exploit" of players using Queen bounties to gain ascendant materials. When that ability was removed, it also removed any motivation to continue to attempt Queen missions. The more Bungie removes player ability, the more they make me doubt their ability to make Destiny a game worth playing for the next 10 years. If there is anything that needs to be "fixed" about the Raid, it is the random factor that influences whether or not you get any raid gear for completing the raid in the first place.
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Yeah, as soon as we saw the patch notes, we thought of a new strategy, we'll be testing it tomorrow if it works, but we already had a good strategy. We didn't break anything, and if you say this was a bug a month later, that's a problem. The "bug" is that 2 people get teleported instead of 3, or it's not the one's that are furthest back that are teleported. Bungie keeps nerfing parts of the raid that have no need to be nerfed, it's pretty dumb. *Sigh*
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2 RepliesAdding RNG to the fight seems like a pretty bad move. The fact that teams were able to strategize and plan what role each person had made the fight feel decent. Adding the random 3 people get teleported into the time gates just seems like an artificial afterthought of "how else can we make this fight 'harder'" by adding an element of randomness. There was nothing wrong with that aspect of the fight to begin with. This is also going to add to group frustration by singling people out in the raid as being the "weak link." Wiping after a few teleports because "that guy" got ported in again and screwed up is just asking for more inter-group hatred/drama. Please keep that aspect of the fight how it is now: having the 3 furthest from Atheon getting ported.
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1 ReplyI agree with you 100%. Bungie said each class / guardian is unique. Well we took what little uniqueness they gave us and used it, to the best effect, in the VoG. Now Bungie decide that their player base is too smart and their devs 'not so smart' so they are going to punish us for their employees ineptitude or their lack of understanding of basic raid mechanics and raid party constituents. Every MMO which has raids, generally requires specific classes to perform specific tasks,traditionally the Holy Trinity, Tank, Healer, DPS. We don't have that in Destiny, so we adapted to our strengths and the AI's weakness and found ways to beat the Raid and now you don't like it. You had the chance to make the VoG more dynamic. You could have given us different Mob behaviour based on the raid make up. You could have given us choices like loot the chest and the mobs start enraged or an enrage timer begins. You could have had different mini bosses based on unknown triggers. But you chose random teleporting, which is not so bad in 12+ groups, you can fill in as you normally have a little extra capacity. But in tiny 6 man raids everyone has a job, and the successful of us learned them, very often learning them efficiently. Now you want to punish those of us who put in the hours so that we can get good enough gear to try and beat the VoG on hard mode. Please leave Atheons teleporting alone and focus on the stuff that really needs fixing like your shocking match making algorithms in the crucible - playing against someone with 300ms lag is almost impossible, yet it seems to be a common occurrence. Or maybe giving us the Iron Banner that you promised. Currently DeeJ is losing credibility with this community and its Bungie who is making him look stupid... Devil Walker, loads of lovely loot sound familiar?
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1 ReplyEdited by Leogan: 10/18/2014 9:51:01 PMFirst and foremost I want to say I highly approve of announcing hotfix plans and rationale ahead of the actual patch. I hope this remains standard. I am ambivalent about the actual Atheon teleport changes. Training for all roles was something my clan and I were already doing, simply because if someone went down another would have to pick up the slack anyway. Being prepared for that seemed prudent, and team building. But as others have pointed out, being prepared and being forced aren't quite the same thing. Patching encounters to increase difficulty has its own barrel of problems that patching to decrease difficulty does not. This isn't Beta, progress will not be reset. Increasing difficulty post-release functionally raises the height of the wall new raiders have to climb, where players who completed the raid already received the [b]exact same rewards for what was arguably a less difficult task[/b]. This is going to tick people off, as we can plainly see. It's better to over tune the fight, then dial it back, if you have to change difficulty at all. Doing it the other way around makes me think two things: - The raid did NOT get enough testing - Someone is worried that the content not being adequately challenging is a big enough problem to warrant spending the time and money to fix it. The question I have in response to both these thoughts is, why and why?
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1 ReplyCompletely agree with the above post and I wanna add two more things. 1. If this was a "Bug", and i use that very lightly because it clearly isn't, why did no one who was testing this raid ever point it out or say hey is this an intended mechanic? or hey did we want this to be random? Seems everything Bungie does is incomplete and it saddens me to see them keep shooting themselves in the foot in front of their community. 2. Weren't we like done with RNG? Just look at the mess the Cryptard made that infuriated the community and now you guys wanna try to sneak it back in? Hell no get that -blam!-ing RNG out of this Boss fight. Listen to your damn community and fix things that are actually broken or the only thing being broken is the records for biggest tanking game when Destiny 2 comes out
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Agreed!!
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Thank you for this I completely agree, I've been working with my clan perfecting our strategy for the raid, its not fair that they want to mess with the teleportation for Atheon
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Agreed
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Completely agree.
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Like everyone else, I have to agree. Knowing who was going to teleport gave you a chance to plan strategy and execute it. The reason the VoG is the pinnacle of Destiny is it actually requires strategy to execute, unlike much of the rest of the game. Bungie shouldn't be removing the strategy portions of the fight. Others have suggested making this change to the hard mode only, and I agree. But when Atheon bugs persist with only 2 members teleporting or players getting stuck in the portal even though it is open it's a kick in the face from Bungie to remove the strategy but leave the bugs. Fix the bugs Bungie, don't nerf the strategy. Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the mechanic as it is now wasn't designed that way. It is a lot easier to just code to send 3 random guardians. With the distance they have to do the distance calculations and teleport the farthest. That behavior doesn't happen by accident. It's a great mechanic. At this rate, why not have the relic be randomly assigned too? After all, all players need to be able to do all parts of the raid, right Bungie? All other changes to the game have been great but this specific one is such a boneheadedly dumb move it's incredible it even passed out of the brainstorming meetings.
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I am in 100% Agreement with you on this every person is different some are better attackers others are better defenders the teleport does not need fixing rather it needs to be made legit an constant
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bingie!!!! please read this and see the mistake you are making!!!! your going to change the already flowing river of gameplay mechanics and screw up the flow.
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Bungie needs to read all these posts!!!
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2 RepliesThis is the world that was delivered to us, A mistake in coding, $500m budget should have seen to "Bug's in coding" sorted a long time before hitting shelfs (they did release a beta right and have their own in house game developers and testers), Scientist use exploits in our world all the time, Gravitational constant is a constant in our world, Pie is a constant, Sure would be handy to have as a different number sometime to do different things but that's the world we live in, If you all want the raid to be harder RNG where hole in wall is during Gorgan's gaze, Takes me a minute to run through and don't here any discussing that this as a cheat, If I can die because of misadventure where enemies can back me into a comer and I fall of edge why can't the enemies, Its suppose to be an open world but updates seam to be continually closing world down, Why can't I take a position and snipe, Why can[t I use the tactics I see fit to play the game the way I chose to, If you want to spend hours on hours shooting at loot caves so be it that's your choice and your Guardian (Who quite clearly is a window licker), Don't get upset that people chose to play the game that why, I have defeated Atheon both ways and the satisfaction out of beating him the correct way was brillante but so to was being able to knock him of edge after 5hrs of carrying a team through the rest of the raid and to be just done with it. If Shards and Energy were maybe a little easier to come across you wouldn't have so many people wanting to "exploit" Atheon just to get Shards. And if that's Cheating they why aren't they looking at he way can I drop in at Atheon Checkpoint and not do rest of raid and get shards and reward drop. Again its open world let me play the way I choose to not the way you are keyholing me into. Take what you have learnt from this raid Bungie and make the next one harder. "Ok they were pushing him off edge in last one how can we counteract in next raid" No matter how hard you try someone will always figure out the code you have written through hours of game play, Some of the greatest Arcade game were specific button combos that need to be done to beat the "Code" found through hours of game play. I give a big shout out to who ever did figure this out in the first place, Same as killing atheon in 30's, This has simply come through rage at not killing atheon after hours and just rushing him out of pure frustration and then noticing how the code played out from that point. Its in human nature to look for patterns and sequence's, Someone will always figure out a "short cut", it what we do as people eg i'm sure your using a remote control, That cheating and lazy get up of the couch and change the channel. Stop worrying about the Raid and be more concerned about Bungie servers and dropouts, I bought a PS4 to be plug and play, don't expect me to be have a networking degree just so I can play game without constant dropouts. Again "500m Budget" should have seen this issue sorted before release,
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I did the raid for the first time last night with a group of people I had never met before. I was VERY clear that I hadn't done the raid and would need direction, but that I would listen and follow the group leader's instructions. Last night, I was most useful as a gun. I held the first relic for cleanses, but other than that, I shot mobs. Revived people as needed. I was able to contribute and actually help even though it was my first time. A couple of people dropped out and we were able to replace them just in time for Atheon. And that's where things turned into an absolute disaster. I was lucky in that the people who jumped in knew what they were doing and were able to provide direction, but this change will make it so that no group - save actual friends who know each other offline/in other areas - will take a newbie in because of the danger of wiping. There isn't enough time in the portals for people who don't know what they're doing to figure it out. There isn't enough time for people outside to figure out which portal leads from which planet. And there's a huge difference between reading a walkthrough/watching a YouTube video and actually doing it. Last night, the primary reason I was able to contribute in the raid is because I could take direction from the group leader. I tried staying outside the portals and keeping them open and when the portal team kept wiping I tried going into the portal with the group leader. I was most effective and able to contribute on the outside, and this patch removes my ability to contribute where I am most effective while gradually learning other roles. In every other raid I've ever done, there has always been a leader who called the shots, who defined the roles/classes necessary for the raid, who explained the strategy, told which class to be where and why, and told people when they needed to be somewhere else. Being part of an effective raid meant taking direction and following instructions. This breaks that chain of command. It breaks how a team operates in every single raid I've ever been part of, and in every single raid I've ever heard of. That isn't innovation. That's breaking an established team dynamic developed and honed across multiple platforms in dozens of games over a decade and a half or so. I'm a parent and partner. I have a kid and a relationship. I don't have time to wipe for six hours because people don't know what they're doing, nor do I want to inflict that pain on others, and this change is basically making it so that people like me who have responsibilities to other people can't contribute effectively while learning how to do the raid. Some folks have suggested applying that change solely to hard mode and leaving the normal raid alone. That makes a LOT of sense, even if it still breaks the team dynamic that dozens of games have put into place. If you're going to do it on hard mode, you should know exactly what you're doing at all times, and it isn't unreasonable to expect players doing it to be able to fill all roles. It's a fair compromise which leaves content accessible to folks like me while I learn and yet still increases the challenge at higher levels. But on normal mode? That's where we should learn, where we should be able to hone that team so that everyone is ready for hard mode. I'm getting increasingly frustrated with Bungie nerfing everything. Some changes are actually necessary, but most changes seem to occur because players found a way to use a game system that was working as intended but in a way that Bungie doesn't like (see: loot cave). And besides the Cryptarch being shown a sack of doorknobs, which of those changes has actually improved the PVE or PVP experience instead of removing an aspect of the game that players used to mitigate other problems (because the Cryptarch change seemed to happen once Bungie realized that your odds of getting a legendary item from a legendary engram weren't actually that good, which is why people relied on the loot cave)? This change in particular seems especially problematic because it breaks the exact things Bungie has said it wanted - teamwork, leadership and so on. The deeper I get into the game, the more I come to the inescapable conclusion that Bungie's on-going assertions that it wants players to play in the way they want are mere lip service. I realized that when I ran into the PVP component of my first exotic bounty (I am VERY much a PVE guy). I realized that when Bungie nerfed the loot cave. And I'm realizing it again with the change to teleporting. You can get to level 28 playing exactly how you want. You never have to touch PVP or PVE if you don't want to. But after that? To complete exotic bounties? To do the raid? To participate in high-end content? You have play exactly how Bungie requires you to. And if you find a way to do something that Bungie doesn't like, it will be removed. If you use a game system in a way that it operates but that Bungie didn't intend, it will be changed. Quickly. Frankly, I'm glad I did the raid last night. I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to do it again. And I can't blame people who don't want me to try.
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This change is completely unnecessary. The idea of team composition is to have players with roles work towards success of the mission. If you don't want people to have these roles why create different classes. Taking the sniper tower was a big blow but I could see the call for that but taking away team composition on the final boss of an already tough battle is over board. There are many glitches that occur durring the fight that have not been addressed. Such as him only teleporting one maybe two guardians instead of the three that are supposed to be sent. Another annoying item not addressed us the end of the raid not closing out to orbit like the rest of the strikes. Please address current issues not player strategy.
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2 RepliesI find it hilariously insulting that Bungie nerfs the best reward from the Raid and then is planning to make the Raid even more random (and thus, harder) a week later.
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Couldn't agree more, this random teleporting 'change' is going to drive a lot of people away from doing raids, and furthermore, creating even MORE unsuccessful raids at that. My role in the raid is to handle the relic, and/or kill the oracles in the timestream, as a lvl 29 hunter and titan, i've tried the outside and it's just not a role for me. Bungie is going to lose a lot of fans this way...
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1 ReplyAgreed. I'm a dedicated defender. I'm the guy who keeps the portals open to bring our other half home, the one who fights tooth and nail to stay alive amidst harpies and Vex hordes. And if you try throwing me in that timestream with the relic, I WILL drag my team down because I am not effective in that role. Don't do this Bungie. Please.
