Oh screw you. We ARE being forced and you know it.

[quote]You're not being forced to do PvP. You're being encouraged to do PvP. You want that exotic weapon?... ...Do not confuse incentives with force. It's a reward for doing a task, not a penalty for not doing a task. It's giving you a cookie and milk for cleaning your room, not grounding you for having a dirty room.[/quote] Nice try, but your logic is flawed. First off, it is more like walking (PvE) and riding a bike (PvP). Now most people can walk, but there are those that cannot ride a bike worth a $hit. Some people like to ride their bikes but they CAN walk. These exotic weapon bounties are like tormenting a child by hanging a reward in front of them that they CANNOT have until they ride the bike around the block without falling. Now go clean your room...

[quote] Nice try, but your logic is flawed.[/quote] Simply because you disagree with a statement does not render it's logic flawed. [quote]First off, it is more like walking (PvE) and riding a bike (PvP). Now most people can walk, but there are those that cannot ride a bike worth a $hit. Some people like to ride their bikes but they CAN walk.[/quote] This analogy is muddy and describes two different things and ignore a vast basis for comparison. [quote]These exotic weapon bounties are like tormenting a child by hanging a reward in front of them that they CANNOT have until they ride the bike around the block without falling.[/quote] You clearly haven't raised any children. Take it from someone who has a kid. That's not tormenting a child, that's providing an incentive and rewarding success. It's a very valuable thing to teach a child so that they don't end up entitled little brats who expect everything to just be handed to them... ...like you.

I just expect equal opportunity which I DO NOT HAVE to complete Exotic weapon bounties without being forced to do PvP.

Not all exotic bounties require PvP. I just finished the bounty for Pocket Infinity, and it was entirely done in PvE. To include your running and biking analogy, presume these exotic bounties are comparable to a biathlon. The rewards are for those who are good runners and a good bikers. They are not rewards for those who are just good runners or just good bikers. You are given the same opportunity to earn every exotic as everyone else. Whether or not you choose to is your own prerogative. If you don't want to participate in PvP, don't do it. No one is forcing you to do it but you. If an exotic bounty is designed to reward players who do both PvE and PvP, and you don't, then it's just not a reward for you. If an exotic bounty is designed to reward players who do only PvE (such as "A Shattered Memory Fragment" which I just completed to be rewarded with Pocket Infinity), and you do only PvE, then it's a reward you should be after. Now if you don't really mind trying to learn to be at least decent in PvP, it's just a matter of setting aside your bias to give it a go. Yes, there are no-lifers who will wreck you constantly, expect that to happen, and don't take yourself so seriously. Just focus on learning the ropes, watch what everyone is doing, and even shadow another player on your team everywhere they go to learn quickly little things about map routes and game flow. Given time, anyone can be at least decent in the Crucible. To say that you can't is self defeating, and setting yourself up for failure before you've given it an honest effort to try. If you don't want to, don't. If you do, give it a fair try. You may be better at it than you presume yourself to be if you just give yourself a chance to develop that skill.

Have tried, DO NOT LIKE. TOO many bullet hoses. All options I had were with PvP requirements (google), and I NEVER completed a crucible bounty. Still not equal opportunity, still feels like forced PvP.

[i]Shattered Memory Fragment[/i] and [i]Voice In The Wilderness[/i] are just two that I know of that do not require you to step foot in the Crucible. If you're going to willfully ignore PvP, which you are more than welcome to do, you forgo rewards that require you to do it. For example, I haven't done the Vault Of Glass yet, I just don't want to, and any rewards I can get that require me to do the Vault Of Glass content are thus not being granted to me. I have the same opportunity to do it as anyone else who owns a copy of Destiny, but I am limited by my own decision not to do that content. [b]Force[/b]: "Clean your room or I'll wipe your console hard drive." [b]Incentive[/b]: "Clean your room and we'll go get ice cream." Incentives only work if the person wants the thing you offer. The more they want it, the stronger the incentive is. Incentives can be so strong that they can be perceived as force, and can be expressed to an extreme which becomes force, I.E. "Clean your room and I'll give you this glass of water." seems like a poor incentive, but if you've deprived the subject of fluids for an entire day it's actually force bordering on torture. Suffice it to say that isn't the case in Destiny

Neither bounty was one of the three I had a choice from. Again FORCED PvP for exotic weapon bounties received by PvE exclusive players. And unreal crucible mark exchange rates for materials that are also needed to upgrade legendary equipment. 3/4 vendors with weapons require crucible marks to purchase weapons. Drop rate for PvE engrams is nerfed to absurdity. PvP still gets loot after every match. Tell me again how PvE isn't getting sh¡t on, and we don't HAVE to play PvP (if we want loot). Is punching a person in the face till they give up their wallet incentive too? I mean, you can hold on to your wallet till they pry it from your cold dead hands right? You don't have to hold onto it, you can give it up.

[quote]Neither bounty was one of the three I had a choice from.[/quote] Then abandon them. Simple choice. [quote]Again FORCED PvP for exotic weapon bounties received by PvE exclusive players.[/quote] You should learn the difference between incentive and force. [quote]And unreal crucible mark exchange rates for materials that are also needed to upgrade legendary equipment.[/quote] I've obtained in excess of 180 spin metal in an hour of box farming on Earth. That's 15 crucible marks (plus excess spin metal equivalent to 3 crucible marks as 10 spin metal = 1 mark in the transfer rate of 50 = 5) and crucible rep boost. Crucible matches take about 10 min. each, if you won every match for an hour you'd have 18 marks. Interestingly near identical to my gains farming spin metal. [quote]3/4 vendors with weapons require crucible marks to purchase weapons.[/quote] As I said, go find and learn a good box farm for resources to convert. [quote]Drop rate for PvE engrams is nerfed to absurdity.[/quote] Shooting at a black hole for hours on end is not the way Bungie envisioned Destiny to be played. There are other routes of obtaining engrams, and one such option is box farming. [quote]PvP still gets loot after every match.[/quote] Factually incorrect. Though seeing as you have little to no experience with PvP it's an excusable mistake. You'll very often receive no loot at all after a match. [quote]Tell me again how PvE isn't getting sh¡t on, and we don't HAVE to play PvP (if we want loot).[/quote] Your subjective opinion has no effect on objective reality. Your failure to remove your personal bias has warped your perspective. [quote]Is punching a person in the face till they give up their wallet incentive too?[/quote] No. That's literally force. Destiny is in no way inflicting or threatening physical harm for you to do an exotic bounty. [quote]I mean, you can hold on to your wallet till they pry it from your cold dead hands right?[/quote] Or you could fight back... or you could run... or you could call the police. Plenty of options when confronted with physical harm. Getting mugged and doing an exotic bounty are incredibly dissimilar experiences.

[quote]Neither bounty was one of the three I had a choice from.[/quote] [quote]Again FORCED PvP for exotic weapon bounties received by PvE exclusive players.[/quote] [quote]And unreal crucible mark exchange rates for materials that are also needed to upgrade legendary equipment.[/quote] [quote]I've obtained in excess of 180 spin metal in an hour of box farming on Earth. That's 15 crucible marks (plus excess spin metal equivalent to 3 crucible marks as 10 spin metal = 1 mark in the transfer rate of 50 = 5) and crucible rep boost. Crucible matches take about 10 min. each, if you won every match for an hour you'd have 18 marks. Interestingly near identical to my gains farming spin metal[/quote]. [quote]3/4 vendors with weapons require crucible marks to purchase weapons.[/quote] [quote]As I said, go find and learn a good box farm for resources to convert.[/quote] Would be alright, but other people open chests and grab materials, and they disappear too quickly. Announcements would help (GamerTag has opened a chest or found planet loot) along with local communications to say "wait for my fireteam" so people can understand what is going on since we don't have capabilities to communicate via ASL. OR vendors could simply take both kinds of marks since you can earn reputation by simply performing bounties and patrol missions and wearing the proper colors. [quote]Drop rate for PvE engrams is nerfed to absurdity.[/quote] [quote]Shooting at a black hole for hours on end is not the way Bungie envisioned Destiny to be played. There are other routes of obtaining engrams, and one such option is box farming.[/quote] As one PvPkid is already in another thread talking about dump scripts for staying still... I could care less about the cave, it is the lvl 24 missions that do no good for lvl 24's because they already have light on their gear. [quote]PvP still gets loot after every match.[/quote] [quote]Factually incorrect. Though seeing as you have little to no experience with PvP it's an excusable mistake. You'll very often receive no loot at all after a match.[/quote] SOMEBODY on your team gets loot after every match. Matches are capped at 15 minutes, it takes longer in PvE to get one drop for a person with current loot drop rate. After lvl 15, greens are not rewards in PvP. 1st match, blue heavy weapon engram turned to legendary machine gun. Not 1 legendary drop in PvE since patch... [quote]Tell me again how PvE isn't getting sh¡t on, and we don't HAVE to play PvP (if we want loot).[/quote] [quote]Your subjective opinion has no effect on objective reality. Your failure to remove your personal bias has warped your perspective.[/quote] And I suppose yours hasn't... [quote]Or you could fight back... or you could run... or you could call the police. Plenty of options when confronted with physical harm. Getting mugged and doing an exotic bounty are incredibly dissimilar experiences.[/quote] Food then. Food is necessary in life, gear in game. You don't beat me in a fight, you don't get to eat. Incentive is food, still forced to fight unwillingly or starve... BTW, the police are under NO obligation to protect an individual citizen according to the SCotUS, look it up.

You keep bringing up examples of force and creating a straw man argument consistently failing in the simple distinction between [b]FORCE[/b] an [b]INCENTIVE[/b]. Doing an exotic bounty is in no way similar to food deprivation and requiring what I assume you to be describing as a pit fight in order to be fed. That's not incentive, as I mentioned literally two posts ago, that exact thing is [b]force[/b] bordering on torture. This is not occurring in Destiny. At no point in Destiny was I ever forced to finish getting Pocket Infinity. Hell I could've just ignored it entirely, and still played Destiny just fine. There was no disabling of other game features until I completed it, or mandate that I never go to PvP until I finish it, or any psychic mind control from Bungie preventing me from doing anything but work on it. It was a bounty I picked up and could do at my own pace, whenever I damn well pleased. You want the reward? Do the tasks required for the reward. Don't want to do the task? Don't do it, it's optional. But don't expect to get a gold medal just for showing up, this ain't the Special Olympics.

[quote]You keep bringing up examples of force and creating a straw man argument consistently failing in the simple distinction between [b]FORCE[/b] an [b]INCENTIVE[/b]. Not to mention OP's terrible strawman of putting "force" vs. "incentive out there as a false dichotomy to begin with. Face it, Destiny was advertised as PvE (watch the freaking TV commercials), and that is what a lot of players came for. The argument about making people go through the Crucible to get exotic items might hold weight if exotics were not available or had no use at all, outside of PvP. However, the reality is that exotics are sometimes obtainable via PvE, and certainly useful across all aspects of the game, which kind of ruins the argument about the Crucible being some kind of path to ferret out those players who are "good enough" to warrant access to in-game items. In fact, it kind of makes the argument bullsh!t. So tell me again why requiring people to play PvP makes sense?

This argument would be true if it weren't impossible for many PvE players to obtain it. In order for a PvE player to get equal access to game rewards they are forced to accomplish something that is impossible for many. "You want an exotic weapon? You gotta earn it" Gettin a k/d ratio of 25 in PvP is NEVER going to happen for me no matter how many games I play. This is not true for someone who who excels in PvP. Someone who does well in PvP can get through a strike mission eventually (maybe not the first few attempts, but eventually s/he will get it). Tha doesn't work the other way around as a good PvE player may not excel in PvP and will never get the k/d ratio needed to get the weapon. This makes all exotic weapons biased towards the PvP player. In many cases it will go beyond bias and fully exclude a PvE from accessing that part of the game. I get that you're saying it is a reward,, but that doesn't mean that access to the reward shouldnt be equal. It also doesn't mean that attempting to get it should knowing agitate a large portion of the gaming (and customer) population.

Well to be fair it looks like it'd be easy enough to complete the bounty so long as you get at least 1 warlock kill each life. You'd be at least netting 25 points per spawn.

To be fair, that is only true for the one example you mentioned. The exotic bounty I received required a k/d ratio of 25 in PvP which I will NEVER be able to get. It is a biased system and needs to be changed.

Its not a biased system though. That bounty was tailored to PvP, yes, but there are plenty of bounties for PvE. MMOs have always had separate high tier rewards for PvE and PvP. If you're not into PvP just don't do the PvP bounties. Its really as simple as that. You're not being cheated in any way. Good example (that I mentioned in an earlier reply) is World of Warcraft. There is high level PvP armor earned from excelling in the arenas and battlegrounds and there is high level PvE armor earned from excelling in raids. Now why should someone who doesn't participate in PvP get PvP rewards? They shouldn't, its just silly.