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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
7/31/2014 3:12:22 PM
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All you kiddies that think MatchMaking wouldn't hurt Raiding, just ask a veteran WoW player.

We, in the WoW community, had the same discussion about raiding a few years ago when Blizzard went from Destiny's current model of raiding (find your own group) to LFG (which is basically MatchMaking). I'll sum up what happened and try to be objective and un-biased in an attempt to explain what most of you might be missing in this argument. The complaint back then was that more time was spent looking for a raid group than actual raiding. To be fair, a part of that was because the raid group was up to 40 players in the beginning, now it's 25. After a few years, Blizzard eventually introduced LFG (which, like I said, is just like MatchMaking). The initial result was what we expected, faster setup times pre-raid... but that had an undesirable effect that a big portion of the community did not anticipate. You see, raids used to be a HUGE deal. They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership. You could have the talent and gear necessary in your group to complete the raid, but without some level headed leaders directing the group you would be destined to fail. Finishing that hours/days/weeks long raid? That was the ultimate feeling. Finally, after all that time spent forming a group, training a group, making all those friends and enemies after nights of failure... you down that last boss. Nothing beats that feeling in gaming, nothing. Now? The raids feel watered down. You log on, click that "find a group" button. Wait 10 minutes. Teleport to the raid, no words are spoken, just throwing 25 random players at a raid that most of the group has done 100 times already. No friends, no enemies. Just a sea of nameless, empty players grinding away at this now trivial Raid. Failure no longer means waiting a day to regroup because half the team had to go to sleep. Failure now means waiting another 10 minutes for another tank to queue up for the raid. What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. A chore that you must perform over and over again until you can find no enjoyment short of getting that occasional gear upgrade. Blizzard addressed this by lowering the difficulty of "LFG" raids, and made "Normal" and "Heroic" modes that you HAD to group up for. But still, the damage has been done. You never enter a raid with your friends anymore. LFG has become mandatory to gear properly for the "Normal" and "Heroic" modes, but by then you've done these fights dozens of times. There's no thrill of exploring, no thrill of learning the fights and the map. Just a different type of grind that has already lost its appeal days/weeks before you even needed to find a real group to do it with. Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding. Raiding SHOULD NOT be something you do easily. Raiding is a test of your skill against PvE as much as it is a test of your communication skills. But when you allow for a "fast track" method to access the raids, you turn it into a chore that you simply throw yourself at until you arbitrarily find a group that has the DPS/HP numbers on their side. If you're arguing FOR MatchMaking in raids, what you're asking Bungie to do is water down the whole raid experience. Yeah, you'll get to do raiding more often... and that sounds appealing. But I promise, you don't know what the long term damage will be. Please consider this before you make another "PETITION FOR BUNGIE TO ADD MATCHMAKING TO RAIDS". Thank you for reading.
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#Destiny

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  • Approved!

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  • Why is it whenever someone has a view that is diametrically opposed to theirs, they always seem to resort to belittling them as much as possible? Calling them children or other such things as that is supposed to make their arguments intrinsically inferior, seems like something someone with no solid rebuttal to stand on would resort to. That said, I work graveyard shift, so do my friends. We will have enough to partially fill out a raid team, but not fully. And given the hours that we work, it would be extra ordinarily hard for us to find people to fill our group out. Which is why a matchmaking system would be a godsend for us. It doesn't quite seem fair because our real life obligations that we should be denied access to all the games content.

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  • [quote] I personally dont want to get to involved in this whole mm or not debate for raids, yet I felt like saying something. As many of you have posted before I feel like we wont get an accurate understanding of how difficult the raids will be until many of us have set foot into one. Some would even claim that by having mm it could possibly hinder and maybe even mess up raids for many who look upon the raids as an absolute challenge that would need careful planning and dedication. We cant forget that one should never look down upon our fellow gamers because if I have learned anything over my years of gaming is that you can always leave it to gamers to find ways of amazing others including devs themselves.One of those randoms you can come across could most likely be the difference between your survival and your utter demise, because lets be real not everyone you come across is going to be as skilled as you are and sadly many gamers only care about themselves,although that can be said about alot of people both in game and irl. You have people ranging from the very skilled players who dedicate themselves to perfecting their pvp tactics to even the newer more casual players looking for something to scratch that occasional gaming itch. We must learn that we are all here to enjoy the game for different reasons, hell you may not even like the game for whatever valid reasons you may have, because at the end of the day we are gamers to some degree.We are a community so we must respect each others concerns, our reasoning, and most importantly we must respect Bungie's decisions on what they feel is best for their game.We are still able to give both praise and constructive critism on what we feel works and what doesnt but aslong as we respect one another. My thoughts on the matter. [spoiler]my same statement from a similar topic[/spoiler]

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  • It makes me laugh when I read people say "how am I supposed to find 5 other people to raid with that can be on at the same time as me" It literaly took me 10 minutes of searching to find a clan that had all the same goals as myself, took me a few minutes to apply and be accepted. Now I've got a month to get to know people, find out schedules, make plans for release. Honestly if you have enough time to raid in the first place, then you have enough time to get off your ass, stop being anti social, and make things happen for yourself.

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    • Wellllll, destiny isn't WoW. So you don't know what'll happen

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      • I agree. Finishing a raid should be a special occasion. When you get an Exotic, it should be a HUGE deal. Of course it doesn't matter to me. I'll be playing with my friends whether matchmaking is included or not.

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      • This man speaks the truth. I was more into pvp, but I loved raiding with friends and finding groups to join. When they added LFG I complete lost all interest in raiding, and soon after lost interest in the game as a whole. When you try to dumb down the game to cater to people who don't have the time to earn the gear and achievements it makes the game go stale very quickly. I don't have the time to play games as much as I did when I played WoW, but I sure hope Bungie doesn't listen to all of the people complaining about no MM. I want to have to earn my gear and achievements, and I want to feel accomplished after finishing a raid.

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      • You're a good guy. No raid MM.

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      • If they start a petition for bungie to add matchmakeing to raids we must start one for bungie to leave raids the way they are!

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      • Edited by syinc: 8/5/2014 5:21:17 AM
        I agree matchmaking for raids is a bad idea. If you can't make 5 friends, that all want to do the same stuff as you do, and are on as much as you are by the time you get to end game, you're doing wrong. Un mute the mic and make some friends.

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      • Then people like me who lack the friends who play Destiny necessary to do a raid and will not join a clan, are eliminated from such an activity.

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        • I agree completely as a wow vet and many other mmos raids should be something you have to plan for

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        • I miss the nex dance. Both vanilla and WotLK

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        • Let them get a watered down experience i dont care ill be having a good time with my friends

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        • [b]listen to the op before its to late and bump this thread[/b] These dumb kids need to realise they don't know best. They don't know anything. Game devs [b]know[/b] what we want and how to make a game last. Bungie sure as hell knows. There is so much research out there now they can have us so glued to a game it becomes dangerous. You think you know what you want but your wrong and if they gave us all the stuff we asked for we'd have a god mode game where you can kill everyone at once with one button and it'd be fun for one afternoon and that's it

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          • Amen. Children will be children, and they just will never understand this

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          • I stopped after the first sentence just to say THIS GAME ISNT WOW. I'm pretty god damn sure these Destiny raids won't take a -blam!-ing week long to complete. Raid with you guild in WoW if you hate LFR for christ's sake. You know what a guild is right? WoW still allows raiding with guilds. Same with Destiny dude. God forbid Bungie won't let you group with your friends to complete their raids. MM is MM so deal with it. Do you even know how to balance the MM in Destiny? No one does cause we aren't really sure how these stats match up with player skill. It might be completely lopsided or it might be seamless. Game's of this caliber will take some time to polish in terms of balance. Sounds to me you had your mind set about the game to begin with. MMO automatically means another WoW and for some reason there is a stigma on that. Don't let your past experience forge your future what are you a 14 year old girl with relationship problems? Time to move on to other games!

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            • You seem to be under the strange impression that turning grouping into a PITA once more is a good idea for a game. You poor dilusional fool. This coming from a WoW vet, too. How the -blam!- does ease of accessability make the challenge or gloating rights any less so? In WoW LFR was easier then the other difficulties. In this, it wouldnt be (or at least, shouldnt be). Youre entire goddam post revolves around the idea that pugs will make the raid easier. Did it ever occur to you that a bunch of chumps slogging their way through blindly and with little interaction will have a harder time of things?

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              • I think too many WoW players are bringing too much of their previous raid baggage along with them into Destiny. This isn't WoW, there are no tank classes here. You don't need to figure out who will be the main/off tank, who will pick up the boss and who will maintain aggro on the ads. There are no healer classes either. You don't need to figure out who is going to heal and who will buff/debuff. Will there need to be coordination? Most definitely, most likely left flank/right flank, and boss mechanics such as with the Walker(weak spots to knock it down then pile on the exposed weak area). I think too many people are carrying past experience from an unrelated set of games and piling them onto very limited information from the developers and perceiving an imagined raid that will not match up to reality.

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              • Matchmaking severely hurt zombies in CoD. It will cripple, if not paralyze, raids. It must be left out for raids.

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                • Destiny is not WoW. Raid in one does not equal raid in the other. We aren't asking for matchmaking to ruin yor experience. We just want to be able to experience this aspect of the game. I don't friend strangers as a general rule. I rarely have six friends online playing the same game at the same time with several hours to spare. I want to experience everything the game has to offer and the lack of matchmaking makes that impossible. I don't care if i fail misserably, at least i got to try. Additionally, who is to say a group of four skilled players communicating can't win a raid with two pick ups in matchmaking?

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                • Edited by Smarkdow: 8/3/2014 6:25:55 PM
                  Options are a bad thing, apparently. The fact of the matter is that there really is no logical reason not to include raid matchmaking. It's just another option. "But you'll run into quitters, noobs, and other undesirables!" -Yes, you may run into those kind of players, but that's true for every game with matchmaking. Matchmaking is inherently risky in that regard; you don't know the kind of players you'll match up with and whether they'll be good, or if they'll quit at the first sign of trouble or whatnot. But whenever you enter matchmaking, you understand that risk and accept it and take a chance. "But raids should be planned and played with friends! Matchmaking won't allow for that!" -Again, that is the risk of using matchmaking. That doesnt mean the option shouldnt exist. You can ignore MM if you want. If you want organize your fireteam via friend's list, forums, clans, whatever, then do so. "BUT RAID MM WILL RUIN THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE REST OF US!" -No. "BUT BUNGIE WILL NERF RAIDS BECAUSE OF MATCHMAKING!" -No.

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                  • Edited by Saya: 8/3/2014 6:50:09 PM
                    The problem with this mindset is that Destiny has made it abundantly clear that you can still forgo matchmaking in missions if you want to organize a fireteam. As far as raids are concerned, I doubt it would be much work for Bungie to update the game to allow the same thing to be done (meaning pro-matchmaking players have the option to play how they want and anti-matchmaking players have the option to play how they want; look at that, a win-win for everybody!). Instead, Bungie chose to forgo matchmaking entirely and force the entire community to play one way: You can fireteam a raid or you can just not raid at all. That's inexcusable. I'm sorry, but it is. You have to remember that not all of us have friends who plan to buy this game and not all of us have friends who will be playing the game on the same platform we are. Telling people to use the forums on Bungie's site or some other site is a nice idea on paper, but realistically, finding teammates for raids that way will result in us playing with random players in the exact same way that in-game matchmaking would have done. It just seems like a pointless waste of time when the end result is the same, but with much, much more time wasted when we have to go the forum route. Also, the people who aren't ready for raids ASAP will basically be screwed over by the lack of in-game matchmaking if the people on forum sites for this game function in the exact same way that they do in every MMO I've played (best gear possible or you're booted, don't make a single mistake or you're booted, etc.), which may turn some people off of wanting to do raids and others off of wanting to play the game at all. All of that aside, I don't see how in-game matchmaking would have been a problem for the people who prefer to organize raids via forum sites and/or their friend lists. People would most likely still have that option even if in-game matchmaking for raids existed, so people saying "I'm glad that raids have no matchmaking!" and other things along those lines just come off looking like selfish jerks. I know that's a really blunt way to phrase it, but it's a fair assessment (statements like that basically give off a childish impression along the lines of "We can't both have what we want because what I want is all that's important." and that's pretty ridiculous).

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                    • [quote]They took hours and hours to setup, and even longer to progress. It was a grueling trial of not only skill, but leadership.[/quote] [quote]What used to feel massive and utterly rewarding has now become a chore. [/quote] I played wow for five years as a Guild tank. I personally hated spending enough time in a raid to consider it a part time job, I thought [b]that[/b] was a chore. I loved the people in my guild, but it didn't outweigh the distaste I felt for appointment gaming, bucking for position and ego-driven guild drama. I personally loved the introduction of the LFG system. It removed hours of capital city chat spam, let you meet people from other guilds to talk shop with them, meet new people who showed promise you could befriend or recruit and it let me show off my super awesome skill while helping out grateful newbies. You talk like your own opinions are irrefutable facts and you insult people who don't share them. [quote]Look, I know I said was going to try to remain unbiased, but the truth is MatchMaking ruins raiding.[/quote] At what point? Did you read your own thread title? It's hard to take your posited statement of neutrality seriously when your preface is "share my opinion or you are a child". But whatever, people have biases, they're unavoidable. Just know that I experienced all the things you did man and I came out the other end of it in favor of match making. Probably mind-boggling for you, but it happened, even to another veteran WoW player.

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                      • Your the people who only let people with certain stats and achievements do raids with you. aka the people that killed wows endgame by not letting new players get the stats achievements that can only be accomplished by doing the raids that you won't let them do.

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                      • Edited by Will Likely Die: 8/4/2014 9:01:22 AM
                        I ran into tools like you in WoW. Its people like you that took that game from being a game to being a job. So glad I quit playing that crappy game and moved on to a better game.

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