When Blizzard introduced raid matchmaking, it was for a special super-easy version of raid content that provided lower quality gear. You still needed to organize and coordinate for the normal and heroic versions of raids. Raid LFG/matchmaking in World of Warcraft wasn't that bad, because people interested in getting the best gear still had to go through the usual means to do so. This ensured that community building aspect of raiding was protected. Blizzard didn't let you hop a queue into Heroic Dragon Soul. There were some pretty terrible consequences of the raid matchmaking. People would abandon the group at the first sign of trouble; groups would have trouble downing the frankly laughable bosses because no one was in charge to ensure organization, cooperation, skilled players, and knowledgeable/informed players. In order to compensate for the sheer incompetence of random unskilled, undergeared, uncommunicative players the content had to be absurdly trivial. It was the opposite of challenge. There was zero prestige for clearing it. That is not a good design for Destiny.

The only problem I have with your opinion is that blizzard doesn't force you to use lfg. If you dont like it then forming a raid party with your guild is a viable option (one I used) it's a choice not a requirement. Bungie doesnt have that choice or any kind of in game clan support.

Not all options are good ones. The option to use an Auto Rifle that kills everything with a single bullet, for example. Giving people the option to skip the work involved in finding a reliable group of people is not good for community building. Bungie wants people to build communities. Naive players' first experience with raiding would be with matchmaking, because why would they think to look for a clan when there's an in-game queue service? It would be miserable as they wipe three times before half the group leaves, matchmaking finds new people, and the cycle continues until they finally give up. That doesn't do Destiny any favors.

Sorry I kinda have to disagree here. Using the matchmaking for the strike in the beta (yes I know it's different to a raid) and after going through it my first time there was someone that I worked well with, others were dropping in and out depending on how it was going. After the game I sent a friend request, and now have someone I'd happily go raiding with in future. I'd love inflame chat, but my point stands you can meet people in match made games. But I've added a bunch of forum peoples to assist when I'm up for a raid.

Strikes are both much shorter and much easier than raids will be. And this is deliberate. Strikes aren't meant push organized teams to their limits. Strikes are meant to provide an easily accessible co-op PvE mode. They're a great place to meet people. But they're easy enough that you can clear them solo if you have to, or you only lose 10-20 minutes of progress if you have to requeue. That's how you're supposed to raid: make friends playing the rest of the game, team up to beat raids. Bungie needs to add more social features so that making friends is easier. Raid matchmaking isn't one of them.

While those players might be naive at first they will either get with a clan or make it work. Its not a guarantee that people will wipe and leave thats just one scenario. You can also be successful. I would think that they would at least give players more tools in game to communicate. Lfg nope, in game guilds/clans nope, proximity chat nope, matchmaking nope, Raiding is practically unsupported.

Raid matchmaking into a competent group is like winning the lottery; sure, it can happen, but it's not likely enough to ever be worth investing in. What matchmaking will do is provide people with a way to get into raids without building a community, which is opposite the goal of raids. There needs to be more social features, but raid matchmaking isn't one of them. Raid matchmaking is an antisocial feature.

I agree that there need to be a lot more social features, but matchmaking can be a social feature. I ended up adding 2 people to my friends list that I was matched up with in a strike. I think its logical that if you get matched up with a good player and you can communicate well then you will add them and raid together more often. It happens in everygame. It wouldn't be a big deal but there's no in game clan/guild support.

You already have matchmaking for strikes to find new people. You don't need it in raids to accomplish that. Given the current system, do you expect strike farming clans to be popular?

I dont know how popular those clans will be. I do know that its difficult to communicate with your clan in game. I think that should bd addressed. I dont know what rewards strikes vs raids will have.

Clans do need to be better supported in game. Full guild-style features. Why are you so certain that raid matchmaking won't have any negative consequences? Doesn't it seem likely that if you could queue for a raid like you could for a strike the popularity of raiding clans would be similar to striking clans? That matchmaking makes such organizations less valuable? That if the goal is to create cooperative content that communities form around, giving people a way to access that content while avoiding the communities subverts the intent?

A raid is just a strike on a grander scale. Were assuming all this. We dont know yet if raids are actually challenging or if people will blow right through them. I believe that no matchmaking is a way to manufacture an artificial sense difficulty. I know I can do devils lair on my own on hard. Im pretty sure you can say the same. I cant comment on the actual difficulty of raids I can just comment on the difficulty bungee is creating trying to play them. Im sure I'll be fine but there are millions that wont ever experience this part of the game because of this pig headed decision.

The decision to not have matchmaking for raids is putting the long-term health of the game above the short-term satisfaction of some players. Raid matchmaking fails to punish antisocial behavior like abandoning the group at the first sign of trouble, or AFKing in the middle. Because getting a new group from the queue is easy. And this affects clans as well: fewer people will bother looking for clans if matchmaking is available, and those that do won't be as well behaved because matchmaking reduces the drawbacks of alienating your clan.

Sorry all I read from that post is that you don't want anti social behaviour. And people bailing out or offending clans. Couldn't a simple cool down timer that applies to match made raise solve this. A simple "you bailed you can't start again until your original group is done. Players a, b, c, d, e & f are match made for a game. The going gets tough and players c and f bail (cause they're soft) they can't cue again until a, b, d, and e are finish or all bail. As long as one of those people are still in you can't cue again. You can go and strike or explore but no raid until they are done. Or an hour or 2 which ever happens first. If I know I won't be able to get in a gain for at least an hour I'm not gonna bail just cause t gets tough. The only reason I'd bail are real life issues. Would that sufficiently chastise players who bail for you. (Adjust time frames to suit)

[quote]Couldn't a simple cool down timer that applies to match made raise solve this.[/quote]No. Because "cool down timers" aren't smart enough to discern legitimate behavior from poor behavior, so either they're so punishing that accidents (bugs, server problems, disconnects, etc...) end up screwing over people who did nothing wrong, or they're so weak they fail to discourage poor behavior. Furthermore, that's only half the picture. Raids are supposed to make you want to find a group of friends to play with. The point of no matchmaking is that it encourages you to build a community to access the content. Unlike strikes, raids are meant to be an activity that people bond over. And not the anecdotal "I made a good friend in a strike" that happens once in a blue moon; raids are meant to be prosocial every single time you run them, not just when you get lucky with matchmaking.

You're right there is no way to determine legitimate drop outs or people bailing. I won't argue that. The only solution I have is that you can only cue up for the same raid until if finishes. So your choice is go back or wait. If your spot is taken then you have to wait. There will not be a system that makes everyone happy. Even if there is matchmaking it doesn't stop you from arranging raids your own way. I'm trying to think of ways to make matchmaking workable. If it's there ill use it, and still arrange time to raid with mates. How about in stead of "no...doom...grumble..." You start to look at ways if making it work. I suggested something you pointed out that won't work, I have now suggested something else that may or may not work. It would be better for people to work for a solution. As opposed to saying a flat out no.

[quote]How about in stead of "no...doom...grumble..." You start to look at ways if making it work. [/quote]No. Matchmaking subverts a core design goal of raiding in Destiny. There is no "making it work" because its central concept is unworkable. You cannot promote community building by adding features that circumvent the community. The people who want matchmaking want to circumvent the community. They don't want to make friends, they don't want to find a clan that plays at a good time for them, they don't want to plan ahead and commit to a group of people. They want convenience without consequences. And that's fine, that's what all the other content in Destiny is for. But not raiding.

I'm neither really for or against matchmaking. But to play devils advocate here let's assume I'm in the I want it category. I'm new to mmo genre, I haven't played much online with any game aside from co-oping borderlands 2 with a mate. (I just haven't had the internet connection req for a long time) I would like it because I can play and meet new people. I like the challenge of trying the impossible (like how I spent a few hours in the grottos). I have no intention of bailing cause it gets too hard. There will always be people that do the things you don't want happening (afk, dropping out) in any community. But if more people play with the mind set of I'm gonna stick this out, they don't need to pre organise a raid. The focus should be on educating the community that his is unacceptable behaviour and changing the way people play. Reducing options and rail roading people to a certain play style hurts the community just as much. If some one is acting like a twat or is afk take a moment to message them to let them know this isn't acceptable, yes that means we all have to do something and not have it handed to us, but we can take responsibility for our community. That's why I'd like to see t made workable. Now it spent bother me which way bungie goes with this. WE SHOULD BE WORKING TO IMPROVE THE COMMUNITY. Regardless of matchmaking or not.

You can meet new people playing the rest of the game. You don't need raid matchmaking for that. That you wouldn't abandon your group says little about everyone else. Especially when we can look at MMOs with matchmaking and see how players behave. People tend towards self-interest. Options that benefit the individual at the expense of the group hurts the community; removing such options benefits the community. Full stop. This kind of behavior can't just be educated out of the community. No more so than telling people to obey the law fixes all crime: we still need police to discourage criminals, and we still need game design to discourage assholes. That's an essential ingredient for a good community.

You're right that telling people to obey laws doesn't fix all crime, but it does for a lot if people. As I have said there will always be a subset of players doing that. That was evidenced in the strikes that I played. Penalising everyone due to the actions if a group of people isn't fair. Removing options for people to matchmake for raids is exactly that. The full game isn't out yet and we don't have first hand experience of how the destiny community will behave. If people do have a bad experience with the matchmaking they will always have the option of organising with 5 other people forming a fireteam and doing the raid together, be it friends from work, school or in a clan. Nothing I'm suggesting says that you can't do it your way. I'm suggesting leaving options open for everyone regardless of their style of play. Also keep in mind this isn't WoW or any other MMORPG, the game style is different and will attract a different type of player (and some MMORPG players as well) I know that I may struggle finding groups to raid with due to time zones and lack of friends with ps4. So matchmaking if it's there would be beneficial to me. If the experience is crap like you are suggesting then I'll work harder to find people but I wouldn't object to the option. Educating the community is how we make changes ourselves, otherwise we become bitter, jaded and elitist. It was only in the last few days if the beta that I felt confident to jump into the crucible (and my stats show that confidence was unfounded) how will some one new to the FPS and/or MMO genre build eh confidence to attempt the raids? On another point bungie have made an effort to stay away from some MMORPG elements, the no trading element encourages people to work for their gear, and if you bail out of every raid then you will never earn the cool kit. The game as I see it reward the grind not quick immediate pay offs. We have yet to see how this effects the way the community plays. Edit: Also I do believe my first suggestions were game design ideas to punish assholes... This might minimise the impact you predict, more than anything I've suggested so far.