Interesting read, just to clarify (the rest of your reply was very clear to me) [quote]Then, as level caps hit (and believe me, with a game like this, they will), those same players will be out to make the new level cap with each of their toons - expect less than a week per toon at that point as players master how to level cap and with legendary equipment / end game equipment dropped. Then hunt for the new gear and solve the new strikes, raids, etc over the course of that release duration with the new maxed level gear starts.[/quote]You are of the opinion that there will be updated/extended level caps released down the line, like in similarity structured games and MMOs. The reason Bungie has given for providing such a low level cap is so friends are easily caught up to each other and as you put it; "The point is to get to the level cap, where the 'real' game begins in most cases of these types of games." It seems Bungie wants us to enjoy the ins and outs of endgame mechanics, something you made further reference to in the paragraph before the quote. How would introducing new level caps affect this principle held by the developers, as it would undoubtably affect that core ideal? Players would take longer to level up to their endgaming friends/opponents and if this is to take place as often as you have supposed (possibly 8 times) how different will this process be by the end of Destiny's lifespan? Say, is there another way Bungie could introduce more endgame content without requiring multiple addenda to the level cap? Lastly, in reference to the conclusion above, you described level caps as a necessary evil. Bungie has made multiple comments regarding their goal to continually balance the game or, in other words, never reach an end state where they put the game on a shelf and call it a masterpiece. As PvP gear [i]is[/i] PvE gear, and Bungie regards their multiplayer as a high priority, my assumption was that they would strive to create a more balanced template of weapons instead of more powerful weapons as endgame was achieved. How would you negotiate the goals of a balanced template and a static level cap? Could placing more exotic weapons at the far reaches of 'story' missions work? Although you have said it is in fact a necessary evil, if Bungie [i]were[/i] to attempt to negotiate this, what would be some ways of possibly achieving it? Thank you for your lengthy and insightful post.

Hopla, All fair questions. I can only speculate how they might handle these. None of these are necessarily new challenges in the gaming industry with this type of game. I'll say up front - I don't know how BNG and Destiny will handle it. However, using other games which predicate Destiny and some games which may have influence, perhaps we can see how they might tackle your challenges. - "How would introducing new level caps affect this principle held by the developers, as it would undoubtably affect that core ideal?" Perhaps, perhaps not. This challenge "new players entering a long game cycle with increasing end game level caps" is not a new concept for developers to tackle. Sure, they could take the - new players, I'm sorry, but we are 3 level cap increases into it and you now must slog your way through, just like all those before you... good luck, we will see you when you get there... but, I doubt that's the case - for a few reasons - both from BNG hints, and from history as a lesson. Let's move onto your next question, I'll explain. - "Players would take longer to level up to their endgaming friends/opponents and if this is to take place as often as you have supposed (possibly 8 times) how different will this process be by the end of Destiny's lifespan?" 1) Recall one of the podcasts where BNG said what if a lower level player is continually getting their arse handed to them in crucible by this higher level cat with legendary gear he has no chance of reasonably beating, but he keeps trying and keeps doing what he can to put some shots on him? BNG said in that pod cast that they have mechanics in place to recognize that desparity and will reward that player for taking their lumps and putting up with that punishment and they will be rewarded in kind. Who knows what that means. However, could BNG have mechanics in place to help someone level up who is grossly out matched and regularly games with those at max level? 2) Power Leveling is common in these games where groups / parties exist. You see this in WoW, Diablo, Borderlands, etc... list goes on. I'm not sure if Destiny will allow / include it or not... but in other MMO like games, its not uncommon to have a couple buddies join you in a party and speed level a new buddy through a game to get to level cap. This is typically only really done once someone has experienced the game late, and afte they've had a chance to level up their first toon the normal way, but as a general courtesy, if they are in it for the long haul, there's usually some helping souls out there that will join up and go let them get a shot in on a big baddy they have no hope of slaying, then do the finish work so they get some serious EXP and effectively "boost" mr / mrs newb into level cap rather quickly. If allowed, Dev's these days assume this stuff happens and allow or disallow it by design. Happy (or not so happy) accidents like this of old like are pretty rare these days. Dev's have learned to account for it one way or the other. 3) In games BNG says they draw from, like Diablo III for example, prior to a new major update Dev's tend to announce these "jump into Diablo" days where XP boosts are at 50%, 75% or even 100% boost rates. There's also gear you can find in game which will boost your leveling rate so that you can get a faster XP rate. When combined together, you can get a crazy XP bump and speed level your own character during these special sessions. It's a great time for existing players to build one more new character as well. 4) With many of these types of games, with a new expansion, comes a new CLASS. So after the game expansion drops, existing players get a huge breath of life pushed into the game. Sure, you can push the existing characters to the new cap, unlock the new powers and gear, but also, a whole new class might drop and now in Destiny's case, that means a new guardian, a 4th or 5th class possibly, and a new leveling opportunity for everyone - not just the newbies to the game. So when your buddy joins, you can opt to throw down with your new toon so the both of you can go through the game together in story or whatever with brand spankin new classes at ground zero. 5) Some games have allowed you to start a toon at the new game updated level with the new updated release. So, you didn't have to go level up anything. This is probably my least favored option, but it does allow you to go out and start right into the new major release content without doing anything from the prior game or putting the time into leveling. In GROUP games, this mechanic will produce the least valuable type of teammate if there are truly these 6-man team based strikes which require folks to solve puzzles, work in concert, and read developments in game with some fluidity. If someone has not learned the core game, they are really going to have a challenge in this kind of end game content *if* allowed to 'fast track' in this manner - so frankly, I hope they steer clear of this kind of thing - but its not unheard of. - "is there another way Bungie could introduce more endgame content without requiring multiple addenda to the level cap?" Sure. Where there's a will, there's a way. However, we have to bring probability into this portion of the conversation I think. It's kinda like, can a woman over 70 get pregnant... Yep. Is it probable... nope. (proof) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2369218/Worlds-oldest-mother-Rajo-Devi-Lohan-74-says-giving-birth-daughter-kept-living-longer.html but I digress... It's a game with a rich lore, huge expansive universe, story with immersive depth that spands the galaxy wide. At lauch, they are not giving us access to all planets or all moons. They are not even giving us access to all locations on the existing heavenly bodies we have access to. Do you think they want to open that up? When you read the Grimiore Cards and the lore that starts to ooze from those cards as you find them... you'll only have more questions, think they want us to learn more, and tell more of that story? If the game is supposed to unleash over 3 major releases and who knows how many major support releases... do you think its reasonable for them to show us or challenge us with The Darkness at the end of game one? Would you even expect your guardian is going to be ready to take on the Darkness and be max power after the first release? When I look at it as at 10-year endeavor, culminating into a climatic end with major game release 3 in 8+ years, I foresee that being the chance to get your toon to max power. If I were a gamblin man, my money would be on level caps and additional power / gear over time... but, just a toss of the dice. I don't know anything. - How would you negotiate the goals of a balanced [weapons] template and a static level cap? Could placing more exotic weapons at the far reaches of 'story' missions work? Absolutely. Bungie also said that weapons / gear which were super powerful in PvE would not necessarily be over the top in PvP. So think of it this way... Let's say Thorn is end game. You quest for it and obtain it. (just making this up... so bare with me). Now you use it on PvE and you are able to head-shot stuff with one hit and take it down and the same stuff took you two of your best at level rocket shots to go half way down... this thorn is awsome you think! You expect to take it into PvP and just use it like a shotgun, body shots and all should own, right? Nah... in PvP in crucible, the Thorn just isn't as strong. It's a seperate game mode and they have a governer on the guns brought in there. Now its definitely going to be stronger than the typical same level hand cannon, but can you shoot people from across the map in the body and take them down - nope. The weapon is good, but everything is being BALANCED in CRUCIBLE or the PvP game mode so that the mode is not imbalanced by one gun over the others. I think this is what they are talking about. - Although you have said it is in fact a necessary evil, if BNG were to attempt to negotiate this, what would be some ways of possibly achieving it? Play Devils advocate? That is, what if BNG didn't go down the level cap increase path and instead produced major releases and two more games over the course of 9+ years after launch - and never increased the level cap... I'd have to really think about that.

Hopla, You seem to be concerned a bit about playing with your buds as the come on new for the first time down the road after you've leveled up or went through a cap increase or two. I think its a reasonable concern. I played in the Alpha. I played a LOT in the alpha. Unfortunately, we were only allowed to go to level 8. So, it's hard to gauge the real impact from that experience alone, and I'm not sure if any of this will be of any comfort one way or the other - but thought I'd share. What I noticed at level 1 and 2 vs. level 8 is this: * Early on, I couldn't even hurt level 6, 7 and 8 mobs. They would 1-shot me. Later on, I could easily manage them. * In the crucible, level 2 players could go toe to toe with my level 8 toon, though I did tend to fair better and I only consider myself 'average' at best at FPS twitch type game play. * At level 8, I could kill level 11 mobs which I found in remote locations of the map. * At level 8, level 16 mobs 1-shot me. * At level 1 and at level 8, there were mobs with ?? over their heads that were unknown level, yep 1-shot us... even with 4 of us hammering it, nothing at level 8 and we got wiped multiple times. * When I joined strikes, I was always paired up with folks close to my level - within 1 level. * BNG has said that they have mechanics in place to allow you and your buddies to play together regardless of level... however, if the level disparity is too far, the lower level guy will obviously have challenges until he gains level to be on par with you. Cheers,

That is actually one of the best hands-on summaries of how player level impacts gameplay I have come across so far. Thanks for that! Cheers indeed mate! edit: Did you notice if weapon item level had an impact in crucible play, or was it centered around raw weapon type, all auto-rifles performed the same for example?

All auto rifles definitely did NOT perform the same way in crucible. Rate of fire for example was different on some weapons, by that I mean how fast the magazine dumped. Some guns you could empty very quickly and as such, could take a spray and pray approach. Also, round capacity i.e. how many rounds they carried before reload also carried over. I would say most things if not all things carried over from the alpha from PvE to PvP and were unchanged. Another example was that you could enhance your optic / aim reticle and stability on the 'uncommon' (green label) guns if you leveled them up in some cases through the weapons skill tree, even after you were level 8 by continued use of the item. That too carried over. To your point, what was harder to gauge was how much damage output or damage over time was being nerfed on a particular gun that was upgraded as compared to a white common / plain alternate. I was unable to do any side by side testing to prove one way or the other in the alpha as I'm formerly an Xbox network guy and picked up a X1 and PS4 just for the Destiny Beta, but got in the alpha so threw down, but had no friends in game to do testing with other than randoms I came across. Anecdotally, I can say the guns that had the buffs on them, like the elemental damage buffs as compared to their non-elemental damage buffs definitely seemed to lay on the hurt faster. There's also the impact of your gear which we didn't even talk about. Some gear gives damage buffs to grenades, melee, or cooldown bonuses for your abilities. These combined and with the right build on your guardian can exponentially raise the performance of your guns and abilities in crucible. It's very hard to guestimate how much / little those additional adjustments were handicapped, if at all, in the alpha. There's no question that a high rate of fire heavily upgraded weapon could take someone down much faster than a semi-auto would at close range. Some folks sported shotguns, but you had to get in fairly tight to make shots count. Heavy ammo was very rare and became sought after as folks found quality heavy weapons. Without a doubt, the splash damage on a rocket is gross, but ammo is so rare for them... moreover, any of the gardians supers are the real treat... and those recharge faster than any ammo spawn. I guess all that is to say, it was clear in more ways than one, that all were not on the same playing field... but, I never felt out matched, or out gunned, I always had an answer in crucible by way of map, vehicle, objective, power, Primary gun, Alternate gun, vertical move mode, ghost vehicle summon, Heavy Weapon (if ammo), melee, super or grenade ability (remember, these are not frags...). There's enough rock / paper / scissors to the game that whatever they have, you will have an answer for - if you use your head. hope that helps,

It does help. There is a lot of footage from the alpha but it always seem to leave this discussion for the most part ambiguous. I too had wondered, as you mentioned it, if the light stat also functioned in pvp.