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originally posted in:TFS The Floods Sanctuary
Edited by bobcast:
11/25/2013 3:15:38 PM
37
Why shouldn't employers be able to discriminate?
A friend and I were discussing the boycott of a certain author -- namely, Orson Scott Card -- on the grounds that he is an active anti-homosexual activist. Card is one of my favorite authors and my position was that readers should judge art and work based on its own merit, not on the beliefs or actions of the author. But on the other hand, I recognize the validity of refusing to support the works of someone whose opinions you fiercely oppose.
But this got me thinking: businesses have many of the same rights as individuals (because they are composed of individuals), and the hiring of an employee is comparable to the purchase of a product; the difference is that in employment you form a contract for a regular exchange of money for a service.
So if I can refuse to say, contract a lawyer who hates black people, or refuse to buy from a person whose views, or even sexual orientation or race, I dislike, why should business owners not be able to do that exact same thing?
I'm not arguing for or against either side; I haven't even decided on how I feel about it yet. I'm just interested in hearing your opinions.
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[quote]the hiring of an employee is comparable to the purchase of a product[/quote] They might have similarities, but they aren't the same thing. Also, don't forget that the law does allow discrimination if making an accommodation for an employee would significantly impact the business.
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I remember this thread....
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TBH, I think that job/school applications shouldn't ask for race because it shouldn't be considered in hiring or school admissions.
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Discrimination goes against our national ethos. Supposedly "All men are created equal" or something to that effect is written on an important document. When we have systemic discrimination, something needs to be legislated. For this, you have to go on skill set. Otherwise we should scrap the whole equality thing and give into our ugly base nature.
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Edited by cxkxr: 11/24/2013 2:21:43 PMI mean 90% of people are not bigots, and are disgusted by biggots. I think a business has a right to serve who they wish, they just have to deal with the repercussions. ie: Anti-lgbt pizza shop owner in Ny, openly refuses to serve gays, as a result people stop providing them business, hence they lose a lot of money. Businesses should have the liberty to provide service to whom ever they want, just as much as we have the liberty to choose who we give our money to. If bob stops serving gays, guess what, the people stop buying from bob, and they start buying from Jim who isn't anti gay. Business should have the right to refuse service to pedophiles, rapists, convicts, racists, if they want as well imo. The notion that you're [i]forced[/i] to provide a service to someone, is just as bad as being forced to buy a product you don't want(cough* Obamacare.)
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[quote]businesses have many of the same rights as individuals[/quote] -6 [quote]hiring of an employee is comparable to the purchase of a product[/quote] -8 [quote]So if I can refuse to say, contract a lawyer who hates black people, or refuse to buy from a person whose views, or even sexual orientation or race, I dislike, why should business owners not be able to do that exact same thing?[/quote] -100 Shit thread/10
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Owners should be allowed to say no to potential business because of their moral convictions. Businesses should decide wages, not the government. Why give a foothold to racists?
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5 RepliesFound this thread in the report queue. Read the OP. Marked it innocent. Tough subject matter that is not in violation of the rules. The OP did a good job of making his points clear and bringing up valid discussion points without being offensive. I say, good job OP for the post. While it may piss some people off (because REASONS!!) he did not cross the line.
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1 Reply1. I will never understand the logical part about considering businesses to be "people". 2. Most reasons discrimination isn't allowed is because the quality of the person being discriminated against is completely uncontrollable, like skin color or place of birth, etc. 3. I don't think it would be horrible for you to continue respecting someone or some business that holds opinions contrary to yours, unless that person/business starts forcing their opinions on people or letting their opinions interfere with their work. Ex. If there was a certain racist lawyer, you could still hire him. However, if he started annoying you with his opinions and didn't stop, then you would be justified in hiring another lawyer. 4. This can be summarized: you can love and respect a person while still hating their viewpoints.
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Because going against the social good necessitates State action in the name of Utilitarian ethics.
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I thought companies already do discriminate.
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9 RepliesEdited by Quantum: 11/26/2013 9:00:16 AMThere's no overall benefit to it from an economic perspective. It should be discouraged because it promotes racial and sexual inequality. It's not like it doesn't happen anyway. Unfortunately, businesses can get away with discriminating against employees if they are careful and don't openly boast about it. In any realistic competitive job offer, no one can prove that you dropped a certain group of potential candidates based on race or sex if the judgement criteria is private. Also, I think your individual vs business example is a little weak. Most people don't know/don't care about their lawyers political views. When I choose a lawyer, I choose one based on his ability and pricing. On the other hand, if two identical resumes (excluding one factor) are handed to various businesses, the overall trend does show that discrimination occurs. That's the difference. Businesses were banned from discriminating on certain grounds because they did so in the past and continue to do so today. My resume example is based on an academic study (IIRC) where a generic black name and a generic white name were added to two resumes and handed out to employers. Guess which resume was accepted more often? A consumer avoiding certain lawyers/businesses based on their political views/whatever does not tend to occur unless the business openly boasts about it or otherwise makes it clear that they hold this view. This significantly harms the businesses involved, if such avoidance is widespread. However, it has no major ramifications beyond this point. On the other hand, discrimination based on race/sex does have a large impact on society. It's one of the reasons there is a pay gap between men and women, and why black people are less likely to be employed. Good post/good devils advocate btw.
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Edited by Funkbrotha10: 11/26/2013 9:17:31 PMThey are able to. And they do. The only difference is what they tell you. They won't tell you that you were not hired because you were black, pregnant, LGBTQ / etc This is impossible to regulate. You cannot read people's minds. "We have chosen to move forward with other applicants at this time"
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9 RepliesI'm sick of people who think they should be able to do whatever they want with their business, just because they own it. Whether they like it or not, they're part of the public When they started their business, they agreed to follow certain laws that protect the General Welfare, socially and economically. People can argue that it's an infringement of individual rights if they want, but when it comes down to it, people rely on businesses to [i]stay alive.[/i] I'm sorry if I don't shed a tear for you when you can't fire someone just because you're a bigot. The Preamble of the U.S. Constitution also backs it up: [quote]We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.[/quote]
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There is a clothing shop I know of that does not hire black people old sport.
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2 RepliesEdited by Bolt: 11/24/2013 4:50:47 AMHere's the way I see it after giving it a whole minute of thought: Government institutions and employers shouldn't be allowed to discriminate, as they represent and are financed by the people. Private institutions should, but only if they give up any of the tax benefits (or benefits in general) that the government provides, otherwise you're forcing people to subsidize businesses that refuse to serve them on discriminatory grounds. Given that that the benefits the government gives businesses are so great, I doubt few would find it to make economical sense to give up those benefits just for the ability to discriminate. As such, even if this system I'm proposing were implemented, I doubt it would (effectively) be very different from the way things are now.
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Edited by The Great DanTej: 11/26/2013 9:06:17 AMBeyond "discriminating" against people who are unqualified, there's really no point to do so, and even less reason to support such an action - and since inaction is a political position, it's best for everyone involved to stay on the side that society isn't hating on at the moment.
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Good thread. It's good to play Devil's Advocate, especially on your own beliefs. Honestly, I can't give you a good reason why employers shouldn't be able to discriminate. I'm sure there some sociological reasoning that might be able to support my position...but I don't know enough about it.
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1 ReplyPublic or private business?
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1 ReplyWhat benefit would there be if we let business discriminate?
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5 RepliesEmployers shouldn't be able to discriminate against anything that isn't relevant to an employee's ability to perform his job properly. p.s. ender's game is overrated as hell
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[quote]the hiring of an employee is comparable to the purchase of a product[/quote]Only people worth discriminating against are comparable to a purchase, like gays, blacks, and Jews. White Christians like us are certainly not at the level of patheticness.
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It depends on the thing you are discriminating against. Race? Religion? Attitude? Expertise? You can boycott, but denying services or employment is a display of inequality. Maybe for a good reason, or maybe not. What is the justification?
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Because I would like to have a job...
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I'm pretty sure there are slight biases and prejudices, even based on how one's voice sounds, even your name has an effect Should they do it? No, no one should, because morals and such But do they? Of course
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You're in this group? Cool. When hiring someone the decision can never be completely unbiased anyways. My dad owns a small business and I guarantee he's pretty discriminatory in his hiring process. Most of the people that have worked for him over the years, he has already known somewhat. I think that since he started the business himself that he should have that right to hire people he feels comfortable working with every day.
