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originally posted in: On Community Feedback
Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 9:54:45 PM
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[quote][b]Disclaimer[/b] - I am not a Bungie employee, representative, spokesperson of any kind. I have no "insider" information. The "Ninja" badge on my nameplate simply denotes that I am a volunteer forum moderator. (most of you forum vets already know this, but just wanted to be sure some of our newer folks don't think that this is official or some kind of Bungie PR/marketing thing)[/quote] Guys and gals, especially those of you complaining: If you expect DeeJ to read and respond to your long posts re Destiny feedback, then you have the time to read this post and give it some consideration. Please do. Having been pretty involved in this community for over 8 years now, and being one of the few who has the responsibility of dealing with the community on a large, broad scale (rather than only participating in topics that interest you, like most community members have the luxury of doing), I feel like it's important to say three things here. I'll try to keep it reasonable in length: [b]1. The volume of feedback from the Community is overwhelming. Responding to everybody is impossible.[/b] This is easy to prove/demonstrate, and anyone can try it. Go to #Help for just 15 minutes and try to answer questions. When a question pops up in #Help with no replies, go find the answer (it's usually available somewhere), come back, and type the response in a polite and helpful way. Then try to answer as many as you can in 15 minutes. Then imagine that this level of volume and work NEVER stops. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sounds like a lot for one guy (or even a small team) to deal with, right? Well keep in mind -- that's just 15 minutes in only [i]one[/i] forum. DeeJ's responsibilities have him keeping track not only of #Destiny, #Feedback, #Help, #Clans, #Bungie, and #Community, but also of dozens (maybe hundreds) of other Destiny-focused gaming communities around the Internet and with gamers around the world contributing 24/7, in a dozen language. Add in live tweets, Twitch chats, and social media with the comments of millions of people who have bought the game, and you can see that the volume of commentary is insane. It might be possible to monitor all or most of it, but responding to all of it is simply not going to happen. It's probably unreasonable to expect a response at all -- it is DEFINITELY unreasonable to expect an in-depth, detailed response to your particular comments. Still doesn't mean he (and, in turn, Bungie) is/are not listening. [b]2. Specific answers and future plans could be more harmful than helpful.[/b] This one may stir the pot a little bit, but DeeJ's broader answers ("we're listening," "we're working to identify and resolve issues," etc.) are far more preferable than specific answers ("we've heard your feedback about X issue and we'll have it fixed by doing Y in Z number of days"), in my opinion. Why? Because this complaint: "Bungie won't tell us what they're planning with any specificity!" is far better than this complaint: "Bungie LIED to us and made us false promises!" You are sophisticated gamers. You already know that game development is a dynamic, ever-changing process. One tweak here might break another feature there (weapon balance). Patching one obvious exploit may simply lead players to discover 10 new ones (loot caves). Projects to deliver new content can be delayed by test problems, bugs, employee departures, and a whole host of other things. Sometimes they get scrapped entirely for any variety of reasons. Yet despite claiming to realize this, Destiny players around the world have been quick to seize on pre-launch marketing materials and point out exactly what didn't make it into the game at launch. Take your pick -- "That's all gonna be explorable space," "Out here in the wild, this is how we talk," gear trading, factions, customization, etc. The resounding chorus has been accusations of incompetence, greed, or lies on Bungie's part. Yet every gamer claims to already know everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph. And just in case you didn't, every single marketing piece that came out pre-launch was marked with disclaimers like "All items, details, names, and pieces of random trivia are subject to change" and "Work in progress." How quickly some folks seem to forget this when it's convenient for them. But here we are again, right here in this thread and in hundreds of others, with some folks demanding, requesting, and sometimes practically begging for Bungie to "lie" to them by giving details of what they're working on. All of this despite knowing full well that these things might be changed, scrapped, or added onto. And remember that there is a demonstrable history in this community of some members making every difference between "still-in-development material" --> "final material" a reason to accuse Bungie of lying. I'd urge you all to put yourself in the game dev's shoes right now instead of your own. And I'd argue that DeeJ's broad answers and reassurances that Bungie is paying attention and listening are a far more preferable way to proceed -- you might not get as much information up front, but you won't feel like DeeJ/Bungie makes false promises that they can't or won't deliver on. [b]3. Bungie is clearly working hard on Destiny.[/b] This is something that I doubt any of you would dispute, but that I suspect many of you don't remember. Bungie doesn't want to make this a bad gaming experience for you. Bungie wants you to have fun playing the game; they're not just sitting around counting piles cash and laughing maniacally. It is BLATANTLY clear that they are still working their asses off on this game and future content. Numerous employees regularly respond in these forums. There have been 4 patches to the game already and two long-term special events. New content is on the way. Bungie employees entered into this industry specifically to make great games with a great team. If they only wanted to make money off of you, they'd be in a different line of business. Or making mobile games like Candy Crush. These guys and gals are gamers just like you, and they play games in the same way you do. When things are not ideal, they want them addressed just like you do. But as noted many times already, these things just take time and may (in fact are LIKELY to) experience delays in some cases. In closing, my advice is to be critical and provide your feedback as thoroughly as you can. Good, critical community feedback can truly make a difference between good games and great ones, and nobody knows this better than Bungie (Halo vets will remember the old Optimatch Forum here on Bungie.net). But at the same time, please be patient, understanding, and reasonable. You're all still here because you're all still playing Destiny -- keep that in mind too and ask yourselves why. Thinking about the process of game development in addition to your own preferences and desires will help avoid temper flare-ups and anger that do not help anyone and, in fact, might make this whole process a lot harder.
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  • Ok so how dis this explain them not knowin what awoken are? If they basically are the same? Not to mention why the -blam!- to I need to leave a game and go to a CPU to get half I an already shit chopped story?

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  • And just in case you didn't, every single marketing piece that came out pre-launch was marked with disclaimers like "All items, details, names, and pieces of random trivia are subject to change" and "Work in progress." Well -blam!- you pal, dont try to pull that crap on me, that is called false advertising, that is called lying.

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  • Expectations Vs Reality at that point.. can't say they lied if things were always subject to change.

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  • With all do respecy is it not to late for point 2

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  • Right on brother!

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  • Wow. Much logic. Not sure community will grasp...lol Good post.

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  • they wont

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  • BRAKING NUZ VOLUNTEER MOD HAZ INSIDYDERZ IN4MASHUN WIT BUNGEE GAME MANUGMENT WEAR HE GET IT I DUN KNOW ALSO MOD HAZ INSYDERZ IN4MASHUN WIT PARENTING SKYLLZ U GIZE DUN HELP NOBODY WIT UR KONSTANT BICHIN MOD IS SUPREEM INTELLIGENTS U ALL IZ LYKE BORDERLYNE ASSBURGERS

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  • Good post. I miss Jeremiah.

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  • Unfortunately there is a portion of the community that already believe Bungie "lied" about things, and frankly not saying a word one way or another on the subject just fuels that argument. I agree Bungie is working on the game, however what they are doing is dishing out the quickest, simplest fixes they can which in turn are becoming more punishing for those that enjoy the game simply so that Bungie can placate a small portion of the community. There are SEVERAL gameplay breaking glitches going on in the game (specifically in VoG) that they should have fixed before putting "baby bumpers" on Atheon and the Templar or severely gutting the Mythoclast. I'm well aware there are a multitude of issues and complaint with Destiny right now, but Bungie needs to seriously adjust their priorities and actually explain things to their community.

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  • It's probably far easier to place bumpers around the bosses than it is for them to fix some of the heavier glitches in the vault Not that they won't be fixed, but you can't expect them to allow the bosses to be pushed continuously while we wait

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  • Edited by Invidia: 10/23/2014 12:53:12 AM
    I'm aware other issues will take more time, but it's a matter of priorities. They EASILY nerfed ARs, shotguns, and the Mythoclast, but where are the Thorn/Bad Juju buffs we were promised ? The changes they ARE making, are certainly more punishing than rewarding. The scout rifle buff is by far the best thing they have done. Bungie would rather patch a loot cave, which hurt absolutely no one, than fix the heavy glitches in VoG (like when you step through the portal and DONT actually teleport back to the room with Atheon). Frankly that is unacceptable. Do not get the wrong impression, I don't come on here and nag or whine and complain about the game, I am giving them time, but there are things they should be focused on fixing first before these minor changes. They also need to actually relay some ACTUAL info about what they are planning instead of vague statements riddled with potential clues.

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  • Dunno what to tell you. They have a track record of being community based, so its a safe bet that they will get to the bugs. Just understand that some fixes are as simple as changing a number and others require them to change the game code. Code fixes arent easy to implement because they have unintended consequences.

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  • Edited by Invidia: 10/23/2014 1:36:39 AM
    My point was, they needed those guns but didn't buff the others they promised (and it is just as simple to do). Priorities, that's what my issue is right now. Everything else I understand will take time, and I'm giving them that. Merely posting my opinions.

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  • It helps if you don't look at them as villians. Not saying you are, but that's the general consensus right now. I'm sure theres a good reason the other exotics had to wait longer I will agree that they could do a better job of conveying those reasons. My guess is theres an awful lot that they are busy working on. The things they intend to fix anyway plus the stuff people find along the way.

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  • I think the biggest problem is, Destiny has so many elements that resemble an MMO and there is so little content in comparison (which is what frustrates a lot of people). Then you start adding all of the other issues and poor communication, it just compiles and results in a negative reception. They should look at some of the successful MMOs and learn from them.

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  • Edited by Z3N-me: 10/22/2014 11:01:36 PM
    The problem you have is that the lack of real cohesive story line and content, combined with the discovery of DLC content on disc, leads people to believe (rightly or not), that you have completed the the game, and sold 3/5 of it as a "complete" game and are selling the other 2/5 as additional content. I will be honest, this is how it looks on face value. Almost as if you showed the game to Activision, and they said "Hey Destiny is awesome, but, that's a hell of a lot of game for £45 don't you think? You could easily sell that as a game and two DLC's". People will always complain, but what Bungie are fighting for now, is the trust of the consumer. The mmo hook of continually needing to do one thing more to progress, makes a little go a long way, and it works. I have, I believe made my money back in enjoyment, but I cant shake the feeling that the full game was not released on day one. Maybe advertising the DLC before release was a bad idea.

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  • Edited by xLEFx777x: 10/22/2014 11:03:54 PM
    Well, this is all great and stuff... But as a consumer that paid Destiny with money and looking at the fact that almost a month and a half later I'm still getting the BEE error code from every crucible 6 on 6 playlist, where does that leaves us? I'm in that category that you MAY have heard about: everything we could do have been done on our side and it's the first time ever since internet was invented that we encounter a problem this huge with an online product or with internet connection. We never had any problems whatsoever with any products until Destiny. Well, I know that we, with that problem, know each others pretty well from the help section. So, where does that leaves us in your cool, tolerant world? Me, personally, I'm pissed. Uncensored and all. Edit: typo.

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  • Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 11:17:47 PM
    Indeed I am familiar with your situation. Sorry to hear it, truly. I'd guess that Bungie doesn't want anybody to not be able to experience the full game, so I would guess they're working on figuring things out. Whether the issue can be solved, or when that solution might happen, I honestly can't say. But if you're active in #Help, you've probably seen the same posts I have, where Bungie employees are trying to work through the issue, so we all know they're at least aware of it and looking for fixes. So I guess I'd say, in my cool, tolerant world, it's okay for you to be upset that nothing seems to be working and it's apparently still a big problem after almost 2 months. I'd sure be upset. But I wouldn't accuse Bungie of ignoring the problem or not trying to fix it (and you haven't). Instead, I'd just continue to try to help Bungie work toward a solution.

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  • Thank you for your time. But I must admit I really don't know what to say... Little by little I'm reaching my breaking point. Patience is a virtue, but as a gamer that invests himself a lot in the games he's buying, I must say that not being able to play some content I've paid for is getting me angry to a point that you have no idea. Now my friend don't want to PvP with me anymore and last week, i had a HUGE disconnection issue too in the raid. Now I can sense that they're not sure if they want to raid with me. This is ridiculous, I know the problem is not on my part. Like I said:, thank you for your reply, but sincerely, those words don't mean anything to me now...

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  • I guess this is what happens when a situation of mutual trust is shaken. You start loosing hope.

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  • Edited by OHBMAJORV: 10/22/2014 10:48:06 PM
    Ugh, I really didn't wanna be that guy but.....honestly you have no more clue about the development of Destiny than we do, you are a volunteer mod (your words). Everything you state about the inter workings of bungie is purely speculation or hear say on your part. I know you GIVE your time to this community and I appreciate that I really do! I also sympathize with DeeJ, but it is what he signed up and gets paid for. I don't expect him to answer every post or even give details on most things because I understand change is always a possibility. As far as "speculation" of cut content there is a mounting slew of evidence that something MAJOR went down inside of bungie sometime in 2013. Those disclaimers may absolve them legally but morally it doesn't go far with the consumer. I love some things about Destiny I really do but seeing finished spaces on disc (minus enemies) is kind of disheartening. I've stated this before and I will again, I want this game to be a success, but I think that's going to take trusting their target audience to help guide them down the path. Thanks, Major V Edit: grammar

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  • Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 11:04:22 PM
    I made no statements about the "inner workings of Bungie," and in fact I expressly stated that I have clue about those inner workings at all. Everything I stated as anything close to being "fact" is publicly verifiable -- DeeJ has said several times (including in this thread) that he monitors numerous Destiny communities and social media. I gave publicly verifiable evidence to support my assertion that Bungie is working hard on Destiny. I don't think these should really be in dispute just because I'm not a Bungie employee. The closest any part of my post came to that involved the fact that game development necessarily involves lots of cuts, additions, and changes before launch. This is hardly a statement about the "inner workings of Bungie," and more a statement of fact about game development in general. And it's not speculation -- you can go watch a behind-the-scenes documentary on literally any game that has ever been released, including prior Bungie games, to verify this. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post. Good points.

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  • The reef was shown in 2013, and it's being brought out with dlc? So it wasn't exactly cut.

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  • D(isc)L(ocked)C(ontent) is never preferable.

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