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originally posted in: On Community Feedback
Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 9:54:45 PM
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[quote][b]Disclaimer[/b] - I am not a Bungie employee, representative, spokesperson of any kind. I have no "insider" information. The "Ninja" badge on my nameplate simply denotes that I am a volunteer forum moderator. (most of you forum vets already know this, but just wanted to be sure some of our newer folks don't think that this is official or some kind of Bungie PR/marketing thing)[/quote] Guys and gals, especially those of you complaining: If you expect DeeJ to read and respond to your long posts re Destiny feedback, then you have the time to read this post and give it some consideration. Please do. Having been pretty involved in this community for over 8 years now, and being one of the few who has the responsibility of dealing with the community on a large, broad scale (rather than only participating in topics that interest you, like most community members have the luxury of doing), I feel like it's important to say three things here. I'll try to keep it reasonable in length: [b]1. The volume of feedback from the Community is overwhelming. Responding to everybody is impossible.[/b] This is easy to prove/demonstrate, and anyone can try it. Go to #Help for just 15 minutes and try to answer questions. When a question pops up in #Help with no replies, go find the answer (it's usually available somewhere), come back, and type the response in a polite and helpful way. Then try to answer as many as you can in 15 minutes. Then imagine that this level of volume and work NEVER stops. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sounds like a lot for one guy (or even a small team) to deal with, right? Well keep in mind -- that's just 15 minutes in only [i]one[/i] forum. DeeJ's responsibilities have him keeping track not only of #Destiny, #Feedback, #Help, #Clans, #Bungie, and #Community, but also of dozens (maybe hundreds) of other Destiny-focused gaming communities around the Internet and with gamers around the world contributing 24/7, in a dozen language. Add in live tweets, Twitch chats, and social media with the comments of millions of people who have bought the game, and you can see that the volume of commentary is insane. It might be possible to monitor all or most of it, but responding to all of it is simply not going to happen. It's probably unreasonable to expect a response at all -- it is DEFINITELY unreasonable to expect an in-depth, detailed response to your particular comments. Still doesn't mean he (and, in turn, Bungie) is/are not listening. [b]2. Specific answers and future plans could be more harmful than helpful.[/b] This one may stir the pot a little bit, but DeeJ's broader answers ("we're listening," "we're working to identify and resolve issues," etc.) are far more preferable than specific answers ("we've heard your feedback about X issue and we'll have it fixed by doing Y in Z number of days"), in my opinion. Why? Because this complaint: "Bungie won't tell us what they're planning with any specificity!" is far better than this complaint: "Bungie LIED to us and made us false promises!" You are sophisticated gamers. You already know that game development is a dynamic, ever-changing process. One tweak here might break another feature there (weapon balance). Patching one obvious exploit may simply lead players to discover 10 new ones (loot caves). Projects to deliver new content can be delayed by test problems, bugs, employee departures, and a whole host of other things. Sometimes they get scrapped entirely for any variety of reasons. Yet despite claiming to realize this, Destiny players around the world have been quick to seize on pre-launch marketing materials and point out exactly what didn't make it into the game at launch. Take your pick -- "That's all gonna be explorable space," "Out here in the wild, this is how we talk," gear trading, factions, customization, etc. The resounding chorus has been accusations of incompetence, greed, or lies on Bungie's part. Yet every gamer claims to already know everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph. And just in case you didn't, every single marketing piece that came out pre-launch was marked with disclaimers like "All items, details, names, and pieces of random trivia are subject to change" and "Work in progress." How quickly some folks seem to forget this when it's convenient for them. But here we are again, right here in this thread and in hundreds of others, with some folks demanding, requesting, and sometimes practically begging for Bungie to "lie" to them by giving details of what they're working on. All of this despite knowing full well that these things might be changed, scrapped, or added onto. And remember that there is a demonstrable history in this community of some members making every difference between "still-in-development material" --> "final material" a reason to accuse Bungie of lying. I'd urge you all to put yourself in the game dev's shoes right now instead of your own. And I'd argue that DeeJ's broad answers and reassurances that Bungie is paying attention and listening are a far more preferable way to proceed -- you might not get as much information up front, but you won't feel like DeeJ/Bungie makes false promises that they can't or won't deliver on. [b]3. Bungie is clearly working hard on Destiny.[/b] This is something that I doubt any of you would dispute, but that I suspect many of you don't remember. Bungie doesn't want to make this a bad gaming experience for you. Bungie wants you to have fun playing the game; they're not just sitting around counting piles cash and laughing maniacally. It is BLATANTLY clear that they are still working their asses off on this game and future content. Numerous employees regularly respond in these forums. There have been 4 patches to the game already and two long-term special events. New content is on the way. Bungie employees entered into this industry specifically to make great games with a great team. If they only wanted to make money off of you, they'd be in a different line of business. Or making mobile games like Candy Crush. These guys and gals are gamers just like you, and they play games in the same way you do. When things are not ideal, they want them addressed just like you do. But as noted many times already, these things just take time and may (in fact are LIKELY to) experience delays in some cases. In closing, my advice is to be critical and provide your feedback as thoroughly as you can. Good, critical community feedback can truly make a difference between good games and great ones, and nobody knows this better than Bungie (Halo vets will remember the old Optimatch Forum here on Bungie.net). But at the same time, please be patient, understanding, and reasonable. You're all still here because you're all still playing Destiny -- keep that in mind too and ask yourselves why. Thinking about the process of game development in addition to your own preferences and desires will help avoid temper flare-ups and anger that do not help anyone and, in fact, might make this whole process a lot harder.
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  • No, but you indirectly alluded to the things like the DLC not actually being any cut content (or maybe I just misunderstood you, if so apologies) I'm not intentionally being an asshole I'm truly not I have a ton of respect for someone with the dedication to volunteer their time in a community, because as a father I know it's a precious thing. I have faith bungie can get the ship back on course and I know the public may never know why the lead writer left abruptly and the game is different than we all remember from e3's past, but as a consumer we need to be suspicious. Sadly it's the world we live in. What I would really like to see is a dev (verifiable) do a Q&A on reddit. Transparency and honesty could go a long way with restoring confidence.

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  • Great post. Still do wish I had a bit more of an idea what Bungie is focusing on, though.

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  • I really hope that Queen's Wrath and Iron Banner are not the two "long term special events" your referring to. Each one of these events were only around for one week, I hope that's not what Bungie considers to be "long term". The events are nice and I'm sure they will come back eventually (hopefully) which I guess can qualify them as long term but if they give us back the same exact event with no tweaks done on it, it may be a bit bland and doesn't really motivate players who already participated to participate again. Unless they could do that I think Bungie is better off making entirely new events rather than bringing back old ones, well that's my opinion. I wouldn't call them "long term"

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  • Edited by SlashaJones: 10/23/2014 1:18:42 AM
    1. Look, the community doesn't want to hear about how Deej's job is so hard. That's an explanation, not a solution. If it's too much for him to handle, and still communicate to the community, maybe there needs to be more people helping him. Regardless of what Deej has to do behind the curtains, the community wants communication from SOMEONE (Community Manager, Communication Expert, Update Guru, whatever it may be). This leads me to number 2. 2. We need to know what will be changed and won't be changed. Straight up. It doesn't have to be on a time table, but we do want to know what's being planned, and what kind of progress there is so far. [u]If it's so easy to just put a little disclaimer at the bottom of a video to justify why half the stuff we saw isn't there, why not do the same here?[/u] They could tell us what's planned, and add a little disclaimer. Simple, right? 3. No, it's NOT blatantly clear at all, because we have 0 communication flow. The flow goes from us, to them, to oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again. What's so hard about informing the players? If we're talking to them, but we're getting nothing back in return, people are going to feel like Bungie isn't listening, despite how often they say "We're always listening." Here you go, Bungie. You're always listening, so here's some feedback. [b]The community wants... you'll never guess... COMMUNICATION![/b] And successful communication is a 2-way street. It needs to stop being a one-way conversation, comprised solely of players offering feedback, and then being left in the dark to wonder. "Deej can't communicate with you guys because...." is a failure. It's an explanation, but what's the solution? If there's no solution to the communication problem, people aren't going to stick around. Simple as that. (This isn't meant to be a threat, just an observation).

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  • Bam! Served.

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  • This ^ X10OO

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  • Exactly, and posts full of bullshit positive conjecture do not assuage those who already feel burned.

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  • I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. Explanation and clarification was the entire purpose. I did not purport to offer a solution. I have ideas for solutions to various issues (that I've posted elsewhere, publicly and privately), but here, I only intended to ask the community to continue offering ideas and solutions but to keep some additional facts in mind as they do.

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  • Edited by SlashaJones: 10/22/2014 10:39:39 PM
    Thank you for your explanations, but the community doesn't want to know why the communication issue exists. They want to know how it can be fixed. I merely wanted to make that fact known, much like you wanted to make your explanations known.

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  • Nothing will ever satisfy you guys, every bit of info is just a stepping stone to the next whine fest

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  • Exactly

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  • Well, nothing will satisfy EVERYONE. But Bungie can definitely work on satisfying a lot more players simply by communicating with them.

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  • I think most people are though. If you want to be taken seriously, don't just whine "I want this" "I want it now" "DeeJ answer me". Your opinion is valuable, but it's just yours.

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  • It's less of an issue of expecting Deej to respond to everyone or expecting their demands to be met instantly, and more an issue of wanting to be informed about what they're working on, and what progress has been made so far.

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  • But then if any promise wasn't met to the letter it would be- BUNGIE LIED OMG OMG. I don't blame them for not feeding the trolls.

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  • I just find the game mind-numbingly boring now. In the so called "Open World" and Strikes it's Always the Same Enemies! Always in the Same Place! Always with the same Deaf,Dumb & Blind AI! I'm sure I could play missions blindfolded without a Hitch! Maybe when the Active Player Population drops to minuscule levels Bungie might give a damn, and stop feeding us Gobbledygook and BullShite? Bungie must be located in North Korea now: They totally ignore the vast majority of the player base and keep spouting Propaganda and Lies! Whenever I get GTA V, or Dragon Age Inquisition, or Far Cry 4, it's gonna be Destiny's "Destiny" to get Deleted! Its going to have to radically change and become something more than the bore-fest it now is before I even think about re-installing it. 10 Year Plan! This game will be lucky to last 10 Months in its current monotonous iteration.

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  • Thank you for this

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  • If it's overwhelming and impossible for one person (Deej) to address issues, why is he the only one with the title to? For example : Account gets hacked on World of Warcraft so you open a ticket. Within a couple of days tops an administrator is assisting you. [b]thousands[/b] of tickets (not all are about being hacked obviously) are opened [b]everyday[/b] but you don't see the sort of struggle in such a high volume between gamer and a community manager. If it's too much for him, which you clearly stated speaking for him for some reason. Why aren't there more Bungie officials (NOT YOU) assisting him?

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  • #Help here functions in a similar way. Maybe not as speedy or efficient as WoW's Game Masters, but they've had 10 years to perfect their system and a massive base of subscription-paying users to support the number of employees it takes for their system to work efficiently. Bungie has had less than 2 months and does not charge a subscription for Destiny. Not saying that this is an excuse or that Bungie's system doesn't need tweaking, but it's certainly something to keep in mind before drawing comparisons between the two games.

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  • Edited by Meltdownman: 10/23/2014 1:13:33 AM
    And that 500 million budget plus this game topping what was it, halo 2 and reach with online means they made money, [b]alot[/b] of it.

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  • [quote]#Help here functions in a similar way. Maybe not as speedy or efficient as WoW's Game Masters, but they've had 10 years to perfect their system and a massive base of subscription-paying users to support the number of employees it takes for their system to work efficiently. Bungie has had less than 2 months and does not charge a subscription for Destiny. Not saying that this is an excuse or that Bungie's system doesn't need tweaking, but it's certainly something to keep in mind before drawing comparisons between the two games.[/quote] This game has been in development for nearly the past decade, and their idea was just to have [b]one[/b] person respond to everyone. It was supposed to be a "unique" game which it clearly isn't. So many recycled ideas from halo. I got a little off topic with that last statement but it's 100% true, if you can't see that then you are an ignorant blind gamer. On top of that, obviously we were led to believe there was a lot more content. However that was taken out and thrown into the expansions and DLCs. Seriously, those DLCs (which I purchased because of the limited edition Destiny package) are worth a couple of months right there of WoW subscription.

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  • Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 10:46:49 PM
    Perhaps you're not familiar with #Help. That forum is patrolled, 24/7, by a team of Bungie employees that regularly reply to technical/customer support issues. See the following account histories: - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/5297165]BNGhelp[/url] - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/5872880]BNGHelp0[/url] - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/5872883]BNGHelp1[/url] - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/8305888]BNGHelp2[/url] - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/8306078]BNGHelp3[/url] - [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/8306295]BNGHelp4[/url] In addition, several other Bungie employees, such as [url=http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/41794]Master[/url], regularly respond to technical/customer support topics in #Help. On top of that, there are 31 volunteer community members ("Mentors" and "Forum Ninjas"), including myself, that all regularly respond to topics in #Help. In the topic listing, threads that we have responded to are marked with "MODERATOR REPLIED." Feel free to check that out too. DeeJ is your Bungie contact point for gameplay and feature requests, but it is simply inaccurate to claim that there is "only one person" responding to all customer/technical support issues and requests.

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  • Edited by Monkpuss313: 10/22/2014 11:08:25 PM
    So why hasn't it even been addressed by Deej that there are obvious bugs that [b]cause[/b] a raid to actually wipe. Example : only 2 people are teleported, relic constantly dropped, relic abilities not working, exiting portal not working. I have wiped [b][u]countless[/u][/b] times because of these issues and sometimes spend up to 3 hours in VoG because of this. Those seem like a pretty technical issue to me that hasn't been fixed or even mentioned. Why don't they fix those instead of fix apparent bug that make a raid successful. I really don't think that because you can coordinate a group and decide which 3 people go into a portal that it's a bug, hell if it was it would have been acknowledged within the first few days of the raid. That's called strategy, and to call it a bug is insulting to everyone that completed the raid. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I haven't touched the game since that "bug fix" was made apparent and I definitely won't be touching it anytime soon unless if these issues are addressed. Edit : My grammar was pretty poor in this post, I apologize.

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  • Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 11:09:05 PM
    Yeah, I don't think you're being a jerk. I get it, and I have seen people talking about the problems you mentioned, but unfortunately I don't have an answer. It's important to remember that DeeJ said to please continue to make these kinds of criticisms and give feedback -- in my own personal opinion, I think it's an important thing for us to continue doing this, ESPECIALLY when it involves folks like you potentially not playing the game anymore. But I just was hoping people keep these additional things in mind before complaining about the way Bungie in general and DeeJ specifically interact with us.

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  • What's the point of giving feedback when it's never addressed? The raid has been out for nearly two months and still those bugs are there. All we seem to get are nerfs because of people complaining in PvP which affects PvE players. Exotic weapons are slightly better, if not sometimes equal are even worse than legendary weapons. There is so much that has been mentioned about what needs to be worked on in this game, yet hardly anything has actually been done or like I have been saying addressed by Bungie. Why do you think people went to the loot cave? Pretty obvious reasons I would say. Since the crypt arch patch I haven't see [b]ONE[/b] legendary engram. RNG is a joke. I know you can't answer me as a representative of Bungie but before you go defending them, understand why people are frustrated with this game.

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