[quote][b]Disclaimer[/b] - I am not a Bungie employee, representative, spokesperson of any kind. I have no "insider" information. The "Ninja" badge on my nameplate simply denotes that I am a volunteer forum moderator.
(most of you forum vets already know this, but just wanted to be sure some of our newer folks don't think that this is official or some kind of Bungie PR/marketing thing)[/quote]
Guys and gals, especially those of you complaining: If you expect DeeJ to read and respond to your long posts re Destiny feedback, then you have the time to read this post and give it some consideration. Please do.
Having been pretty involved in this community for over 8 years now, and being one of the few who has the responsibility of dealing with the community on a large, broad scale (rather than only participating in topics that interest you, like most community members have the luxury of doing), I feel like it's important to say three things here. I'll try to keep it reasonable in length:
[b]1. The volume of feedback from the Community is overwhelming. Responding to everybody is impossible.[/b]
This is easy to prove/demonstrate, and anyone can try it. Go to #Help for just 15 minutes and try to answer questions. When a question pops up in #Help with no replies, go find the answer (it's usually available somewhere), come back, and type the response in a polite and helpful way. Then try to answer as many as you can in 15 minutes. Then imagine that this level of volume and work NEVER stops. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Sounds like a lot for one guy (or even a small team) to deal with, right? Well keep in mind -- that's just 15 minutes in only [i]one[/i] forum. DeeJ's responsibilities have him keeping track not only of #Destiny, #Feedback, #Help, #Clans, #Bungie, and #Community, but also of dozens (maybe hundreds) of other Destiny-focused gaming communities around the Internet and with gamers around the world contributing 24/7, in a dozen language. Add in live tweets, Twitch chats, and social media with the comments of millions of people who have bought the game, and you can see that the volume of commentary is insane. It might be possible to monitor all or most of it, but responding to all of it is simply not going to happen. It's probably unreasonable to expect a response at all -- it is DEFINITELY unreasonable to expect an in-depth, detailed response to your particular comments.
Still doesn't mean he (and, in turn, Bungie) is/are not listening.
[b]2. Specific answers and future plans could be more harmful than helpful.[/b]
This one may stir the pot a little bit, but DeeJ's broader answers ("we're listening," "we're working to identify and resolve issues," etc.) are far more preferable than specific answers ("we've heard your feedback about X issue and we'll have it fixed by doing Y in Z number of days"), in my opinion. Why? Because this complaint:
"Bungie won't tell us what they're planning with any specificity!"
is far better than this complaint:
"Bungie LIED to us and made us false promises!"
You are sophisticated gamers. You already know that game development is a dynamic, ever-changing process. One tweak here might break another feature there (weapon balance). Patching one obvious exploit may simply lead players to discover 10 new ones (loot caves). Projects to deliver new content can be delayed by test problems, bugs, employee departures, and a whole host of other things. Sometimes they get scrapped entirely for any variety of reasons.
Yet despite claiming to realize this, Destiny players around the world have been quick to seize on pre-launch marketing materials and point out exactly what didn't make it into the game at launch. Take your pick -- "That's all gonna be explorable space," "Out here in the wild, this is how we talk," gear trading, factions, customization, etc. The resounding chorus has been accusations of incompetence, greed, or lies on Bungie's part. Yet every gamer claims to already know everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph. And just in case you didn't, every single marketing piece that came out pre-launch was marked with disclaimers like "All items, details, names, and pieces of random trivia are subject to change" and "Work in progress."
How quickly some folks seem to forget this when it's convenient for them.
But here we are again, right here in this thread and in hundreds of others, with some folks demanding, requesting, and sometimes practically begging for Bungie to "lie" to them by giving details of what they're working on. All of this despite knowing full well that these things might be changed, scrapped, or added onto. And remember that there is a demonstrable history in this community of some members making every difference between "still-in-development material" --> "final material" a reason to accuse Bungie of lying.
I'd urge you all to put yourself in the game dev's shoes right now instead of your own. And I'd argue that DeeJ's broad answers and reassurances that Bungie is paying attention and listening are a far more preferable way to proceed -- you might not get as much information up front, but you won't feel like DeeJ/Bungie makes false promises that they can't or won't deliver on.
[b]3. Bungie is clearly working hard on Destiny.[/b]
This is something that I doubt any of you would dispute, but that I suspect many of you don't remember. Bungie doesn't want to make this a bad gaming experience for you. Bungie wants you to have fun playing the game; they're not just sitting around counting piles cash and laughing maniacally. It is BLATANTLY clear that they are still working their asses off on this game and future content. Numerous employees regularly respond in these forums. There have been 4 patches to the game already and two long-term special events. New content is on the way.
Bungie employees entered into this industry specifically to make great games with a great team. If they only wanted to make money off of you, they'd be in a different line of business. Or making mobile games like Candy Crush. These guys and gals are gamers just like you, and they play games in the same way you do. When things are not ideal, they want them addressed just like you do. But as noted many times already, these things just take time and may (in fact are LIKELY to) experience delays in some cases.
In closing, my advice is to be critical and provide your feedback as thoroughly as you can. Good, critical community feedback can truly make a difference between good games and great ones, and nobody knows this better than Bungie (Halo vets will remember the old Optimatch Forum here on Bungie.net). But at the same time, please be patient, understanding, and reasonable. You're all still here because you're all still playing Destiny -- keep that in mind too and ask yourselves why. Thinking about the process of game development in addition to your own preferences and desires will help avoid temper flare-ups and anger that do not help anyone and, in fact, might make this whole process a lot harder.
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Well tough. You might as well lambast a car manufacturer for a model of car not being identical to its concept prototype.
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This game is not what I preordered it for, heck, I can't even go where I was told I can go. That's a lot different then a car.
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Sure that makes sense if you dont account for "we hope to send you there someday"
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They were referring to the release of the game, telling us we could go there, which we can't...
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How on gods green earth does "We hope to send you there someday" make sense when referring to the release?
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Example please.
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Great games launch as great games and get better they don't become them. Maybe Destinys sequel?
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Good post. A sense of perspective is needed for many newcomers to Bnet.
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Hero.
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Re: Point 2- you imply that we, as "sophisticated gamers" are failing to acknowledge all the intricacies of game development and how things can change- thats all well and good, but was Bungie not aware of how this process worked? Where was that thought process when they were out hyping their game, telling us how groundbreaking it would be, showing off all these awesome features and hinting at this epic story that they knew were subject to change and which they failed to deliver on? You talk about our responsibility to them- where is their responsibility to us? They are working on things?- fine, what things?, how quickly?, to what end? Do they acknowledge how crappy their story is? Do they acknowledge how, as an experienced game developer, they have made multiple rookie mistakes? Oh wait, whats that?- according to you we cannot reasonably ask those questions because the answers would do Bungie more harm than good- well what is happening now? behind the scenes changes and improvements, supposedly based on our feedback? Crap updates that polarize the community because we do not the rationale behind them? You expect us to believe that Bungie thinks this game, as is and not talking grimoire lore, has a depth of story? You expect us to believe that the devs did not realize that their advertisement of Iron Banner was not misleading and that their- "oops, sorry guys, now we know" explanation is not going to inspire any confidence in them? You expect us to accept "content subject to change" as an excuse for what was delivered vs what was hyped? Things would be so much different if Bungie would just come out and say- hey guys, this game is not what we had originally intended it to be; we know we dropped the ball on a lot of features and content, and we are going to do what we can to right the ship- we hope this game will develop into what we hyped it up to be, thanks for sticking with us. Instead we get vague "we are listening" answers, as if we are supposed to accept the fact that Bungie, maker of excellent games, had no idea how much this game is lacking- and then you, and all the other Bungie nut-huggers, try to make people feel bad for voicing their discontent. Shame on you.
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I'm sorry, but I don't think you read my post closely enough. I explicitly encouraged sharp criticism and feedback. And in other replies here, I've said that I even agree with a lot of the criticisms of the game. Nor did my post have anything to do with defending Bungie's marketing practices pre-launch. That's a red herring and irrelevant here, except to point out that users who complain that their expectations were not met and are now clamoring for details on future plans are, in my opinion, asking for more of the same problems. I don't mind that people have criticisms about the game, about the prelaunch marketing, or about the updates (or lack thereof, depending on what you were hoping to be updated) so far. But that's not what my post is about. What's done is done - I'm focused on the future, and I don't think sidestepping my actual argument to try to debate the same old tired complaints we've all heard a thousand times and saying things like "you're just a Bungie nut-hugger" is productive.
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I read your post in its entirety and I agree with much of it- hence my focusing on this portion for deabte- you encourage criticism/feedback, yes, but you also encourage ignoring the past. The "same old tired complaints" wouldn't be that way if anyone representing this game would address the issues- acknowledge that we were not delivered what was advertised and let us know where this game is going- can we expect major changes to story/customization/gear options like were advertised; or are we simply going to keep seeing minor "bug " fixes and balancing changes? If we cannot understand, or at least have Bungie acknowledge, the mistakes of the past, how can we have any confidence in the future of this game? If Bungie does not know/feel that they messed up here, I dont want to play the game they are working so hard on, because it will not improve in any meaningful way. Whether it was your intent or not- you essentially tell people to stop focusing on the past, stop expecting answers, and just keep waiting for Bungie to fix the game. Bunge is not new t game-making, so what the hell happened? But you say to ignore that and just keep giving feedback. Bungie opened the door to giving us "answers" and information when it was convenient and helped them hype their game, they offered up info freely- now the information flow is cut off, at least for any meaningful game development information. Doors to Bungie studios are exit only it seems.
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Yes, even if you feel you did nothing wrong, sometimes it's better to just say "hey, I -blam!-ed up but I'll fix it" to save face and not lose respect ... But hey what do we know, we are mindless consumers hue hue.
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they are working hard for DLC ..... and it will cost $15 right ?
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[quote][quote][b]Disclaimer[/b] - I am not a Bungie employee, representative, spokesperson of any kind. I have no "insider" information. The "Ninja" badge on my nameplate simply denotes that I am a volunteer forum moderator. (most of you forum vets already know this, but just wanted to be sure some of our newer folks don't think that this is official or some kind of Bungie PR/marketing thing)[/quote] [b]2. Specific answers and future plans could be more harmful than helpful.[/b] This one may stir the pot a little bit, but DeeJ's broader answers ("we're listening," "we're working to identify and resolve issues," etc.) are far more preferable than specific answers ("we've heard your feedback about X issue and we'll have it fixed by doing Y in Z number of days"), in my opinion. Why? Because this complaint: "Bungie won't tell us what they're planning with any specificity!" is far better than this complaint: "Bungie LIED to us and made us false promises!" [b][u]New content is on the way. [/u][/b] [/quote] Are you lying to me?
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" I'd urge you all to put yourself in the game dev's shoes right now instead of your own. And I'd argue that DeeJ's broad answers and reassurances that Bungie is paying attention and listening are a far more preferable way to proceed -- you might not get as much information up front, but you won't feel like DeeJ/Bungie makes false promises that they can't or won't deliver on." So basically they cant promise if the game ever will get any better then this, or will have any decent story!? -blam!-ing thieves !
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Edited by Snarfsnarfy: 10/23/2014 12:06:21 AMI don't find your stance in points 2. and 3. to be reasonable. It's always easy to try and brush off expectations on a game due to "Work in progress" but the fact is, the marketing sure didn't change with the development. It's something that needs to be punished or companies will continue to do this. On the third point. It's obvious that they are working, everyone works. It's a job. But just because someone is working hard does not discern them from the critique on the fact that the results are lacking. I also don't agree that those 4 patches are giving notion of new real content being on the way.(Outside of DLC) The event's don't qualify with what most people have in mind when they talk about new content. Il grant you the bug fixes, but that's a pretty baseline standard that even the worst games follow. Also, the company is there to make money. They all are. I don't even know why you posted this. Yea, it's not the mobile business... Hooray? And finally, as a company, it does not matter if "Bungie" as a whole are gamers or passionate about providing a great game. The top management is the one pulling the shots and they are probably far more concerned with profitability and business contracts rather than innovating gameplay due to the perceived risks that might effect the former. Edit: Id also like to add that it's far more alarming when a company says nothing instead of something that might make it harder to handle pr. People will always whine no matter what you do, that's why companies always tell you something when they actually have anything presentable. Seems to me that Bungie is in a mess right now.
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Best argument I have seen re: changes to content/game-style- if the game-in-development changed, so should have the marketing- bravo
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[quote]It's always easy to try and brush off expectations on the game due to "Work in progress" but the fact is, the marketing sure didn't change with the development. It's something that needs to be punished or companies will continue to do this.[/quote] If that's how you feel, it honestly seems like you should be wholeheartedly agreeing with me on point 2. Instead of clamoring for details and demanding solid, substantive information, potential customers should instead be satisfied with a "we hear you and we're working on it." [quote]On the third point. It's obvious that they are working, everyone works. It's a job. But just because someone is working hard does not discern them from the critique on the fact that the results are lacking. I also don't agree that those 4 patches are giving any notion of new content being on the way.(Outside of DLC) The event's barely qualify with what most people have in mind when they talk about new content. Il grant you the bug fixes, but that's a pretty baseline standard that even the worst games follow.[/quote] First, I am going to strongly disagree with you that minor bug fixes are a "baseline standard that even the worst games follow." That's an utterly false statement, and can be verified in about 5 minutes on YouTube. A developer's willingness and ability to fix bugs post-launch may not automatically be the sign of a great developer, but it is most certainly not "standard." Maybe you're talking about AAA games only, in which case I would agree with you, but the "AAA" part of that statement is a hugely important detail. Second, I'd like to point out that the patches are not only bug fixes. There have been numerous balance adjustments in each patch as well -- agree or disagree with those adjustments, this is not the same thing as a bug fix. A bug fix is intended to make the game more playable. A balance adjustment is intended to make the game more enjoyable. Huge, important difference. Third, I guess I wasn't clear enough, but I was talking about DLC. I never said "new free DLC is on the way" (how could I say that? I just finished saying I have no insider knowledge), so saying "no new content on the way (outside of DLC)" is irrelevant. [quote]Also, the company is there to make money. They all are. I don't even know why you posted this. Yea, it's not the mobile business... Hooray? And finally, as a company, it does not matter if "Bungie" as a whole are gamers or passionate about providing a great game. The top management is the one pulling the shots and they are probably far more concerned with profitability and business contracts rather than innovating gameplay with the perceived risks that might effect the former.[/quote] I'd disagree with you here as well. Bungie exists, and people go to work at Bungie, because they want to make games, not to get rich. If Bungie's only goal was to make money it would shut down its games division and become a hedge fund or an oil company. Don't mean to be offensive here, but it is profoundly naive to state that all corporations exist solely to make money. Some, such as investment firms, hedge funds, etc., maybe. But for others, profit is a goal, but it is not the only goal. For this reason, it absolutely matters that Bungie employees are gamers who care about the game they make and the customers who purchase it. The last bit of your post is speculation; don't feel comfortable responding to that.
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Edited by Snarfsnarfy: 10/23/2014 9:43:30 AM[quote] If that's how you feel, it honestly seems like you should be wholeheartedly agreeing with me on point 2. Instead of clamoring for details and demanding solid, substantive information, potential customers should instead be satisfied with a "we hear you and we're working on it." [/quote] I myself am not really demanding anything. But Bungie should understand that you can't have your cake and eat it without repercussions from the community. People are never satisfied with "we hear you", they want results. Obviously demanding something is going a bit too far, but a rough outline of possible near-future plans would go a long way in fixing this mess. It's simple causation. [quote]First, I am going to strongly disagree with you that minor bug fixes are a "baseline standard that even the worst games follow." That's an utterly false statement, and can be verified in about 5 minutes on YouTube. A developer's willingness and ability to fix bugs post-launch may not automatically be the sign of a great developer, but it is most certainly not "standard." Maybe you're talking about AAA games only, in which case I would agree with you, but the "AAA" part of that statement is a hugely important detail. Second, I'd like to point out that the patches are not only bug fixes. There have been numerous balance adjustments in each patch as well -- agree or disagree with those adjustments, this is not the same thing as a bug fix. A bug fix is intended to make the game more playable. A balance adjustment is intended to make the game more enjoyable. Huge, important difference. Third, I guess I wasn't clear enough, but I was talking about DLC. I never said "new free DLC is on the way" (how could I say that? I just finished saying I have no insider knowledge), so saying "no new content on the way (outside of DLC)" is irrelevant. [/quote] Should have probably added that i had Quasi-MMOs in mind with that. More specifically, any games that have a longevity plans. Balance changes are also baseline with such games. About the content thing. I did not imply that you had insider knowledge, it's obvious that new content is on the way. But the distinction between the substance of the free and paid content is needed. The problem people have with this is that while Bungie has implied that they plan to support the game with DLC they also said implied that the base game would be robust enough in it's features. As it stands now, people would like to know if those features are being put on the DLC and if it's reasonable for us to pay for something like that in addition to the base game. Now i don't know just what exactly it is that Bungie is planning to put into DLC, but this really proves my point of giving customers some rough ideas to quell such speculation. [quote]I'd disagree with you here as well. Bungie exists, and people go to work at Bungie, because they want to make games, not to get rich. If Bungie's only goal was to make money it would shut down its games division and become a hedge fund or an oil company. Don't mean to be offensive here, but it is profoundly naive to state that all corporations exist solely to make money. Some, such as investment firms, hedge funds, etc., maybe. But for others, profit is a goal, but it is not the only goal. For this reason, it absolutely matters that Bungie employees are gamers who care about the game they make and the customers who purchase it.[/quote] Look, im not going to argue on the nature of companies. Let's just agree to disagree. But i will say it's seems rather peculiar how the gameplay mechanics seem to follow the trends of games that make it their target to "broaden the audience". Which needs does such a design philosophy cater to, the monetary or the need to try and provide an awesome game? Obviously these two are not always apart, but at the very least id argue that Destiny went far more into the direction of tried design trends instead of trying something new.
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Thank you and well said. Also, thanks for being a volunteer
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I agree with everything you said except one. I was at E3 2014, the trailer had no such disclaimer as you stated. Now this is a minute point but I figured is point it out, because it would help people to understand that the 2014 trailer was the new version which showcased this gam as it now is. While it should be common sense by now to most people that games change through development---fable series is a prime example--- I believe many people just feel let down with the story and the weird loop holes on the story. For example how can an awoken character start on earth? Why does an awoken character not know what an awoken is? But to me it's like the vanilla version as time goes on they will fix it and hopefully make it better.
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Did you read the grimoire for it? That explains it slightly.
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That has nothing to do with my questions. It's explains what an awoken is. It does not however explain why an awoken was revived on earth when they did not die on earth because they where at the reef after the collapse. Not trying to be rude but please read the questions carefully.
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Again... Did you read the grimoire? It says some awoken stayed behind to fight for earth. The queen doesn't consider Earthborn awoken true awoken either. Read the grimoire under the races you can play and you will see.