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originally posted in: On Community Feedback
Edited by FoMan123: 10/22/2014 9:54:45 PM
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[quote][b]Disclaimer[/b] - I am not a Bungie employee, representative, spokesperson of any kind. I have no "insider" information. The "Ninja" badge on my nameplate simply denotes that I am a volunteer forum moderator. (most of you forum vets already know this, but just wanted to be sure some of our newer folks don't think that this is official or some kind of Bungie PR/marketing thing)[/quote] Guys and gals, especially those of you complaining: If you expect DeeJ to read and respond to your long posts re Destiny feedback, then you have the time to read this post and give it some consideration. Please do. Having been pretty involved in this community for over 8 years now, and being one of the few who has the responsibility of dealing with the community on a large, broad scale (rather than only participating in topics that interest you, like most community members have the luxury of doing), I feel like it's important to say three things here. I'll try to keep it reasonable in length: [b]1. The volume of feedback from the Community is overwhelming. Responding to everybody is impossible.[/b] This is easy to prove/demonstrate, and anyone can try it. Go to #Help for just 15 minutes and try to answer questions. When a question pops up in #Help with no replies, go find the answer (it's usually available somewhere), come back, and type the response in a polite and helpful way. Then try to answer as many as you can in 15 minutes. Then imagine that this level of volume and work NEVER stops. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sounds like a lot for one guy (or even a small team) to deal with, right? Well keep in mind -- that's just 15 minutes in only [i]one[/i] forum. DeeJ's responsibilities have him keeping track not only of #Destiny, #Feedback, #Help, #Clans, #Bungie, and #Community, but also of dozens (maybe hundreds) of other Destiny-focused gaming communities around the Internet and with gamers around the world contributing 24/7, in a dozen language. Add in live tweets, Twitch chats, and social media with the comments of millions of people who have bought the game, and you can see that the volume of commentary is insane. It might be possible to monitor all or most of it, but responding to all of it is simply not going to happen. It's probably unreasonable to expect a response at all -- it is DEFINITELY unreasonable to expect an in-depth, detailed response to your particular comments. Still doesn't mean he (and, in turn, Bungie) is/are not listening. [b]2. Specific answers and future plans could be more harmful than helpful.[/b] This one may stir the pot a little bit, but DeeJ's broader answers ("we're listening," "we're working to identify and resolve issues," etc.) are far more preferable than specific answers ("we've heard your feedback about X issue and we'll have it fixed by doing Y in Z number of days"), in my opinion. Why? Because this complaint: "Bungie won't tell us what they're planning with any specificity!" is far better than this complaint: "Bungie LIED to us and made us false promises!" You are sophisticated gamers. You already know that game development is a dynamic, ever-changing process. One tweak here might break another feature there (weapon balance). Patching one obvious exploit may simply lead players to discover 10 new ones (loot caves). Projects to deliver new content can be delayed by test problems, bugs, employee departures, and a whole host of other things. Sometimes they get scrapped entirely for any variety of reasons. Yet despite claiming to realize this, Destiny players around the world have been quick to seize on pre-launch marketing materials and point out exactly what didn't make it into the game at launch. Take your pick -- "That's all gonna be explorable space," "Out here in the wild, this is how we talk," gear trading, factions, customization, etc. The resounding chorus has been accusations of incompetence, greed, or lies on Bungie's part. Yet every gamer claims to already know everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph. And just in case you didn't, every single marketing piece that came out pre-launch was marked with disclaimers like "All items, details, names, and pieces of random trivia are subject to change" and "Work in progress." How quickly some folks seem to forget this when it's convenient for them. But here we are again, right here in this thread and in hundreds of others, with some folks demanding, requesting, and sometimes practically begging for Bungie to "lie" to them by giving details of what they're working on. All of this despite knowing full well that these things might be changed, scrapped, or added onto. And remember that there is a demonstrable history in this community of some members making every difference between "still-in-development material" --> "final material" a reason to accuse Bungie of lying. I'd urge you all to put yourself in the game dev's shoes right now instead of your own. And I'd argue that DeeJ's broad answers and reassurances that Bungie is paying attention and listening are a far more preferable way to proceed -- you might not get as much information up front, but you won't feel like DeeJ/Bungie makes false promises that they can't or won't deliver on. [b]3. Bungie is clearly working hard on Destiny.[/b] This is something that I doubt any of you would dispute, but that I suspect many of you don't remember. Bungie doesn't want to make this a bad gaming experience for you. Bungie wants you to have fun playing the game; they're not just sitting around counting piles cash and laughing maniacally. It is BLATANTLY clear that they are still working their asses off on this game and future content. Numerous employees regularly respond in these forums. There have been 4 patches to the game already and two long-term special events. New content is on the way. Bungie employees entered into this industry specifically to make great games with a great team. If they only wanted to make money off of you, they'd be in a different line of business. Or making mobile games like Candy Crush. These guys and gals are gamers just like you, and they play games in the same way you do. When things are not ideal, they want them addressed just like you do. But as noted many times already, these things just take time and may (in fact are LIKELY to) experience delays in some cases. In closing, my advice is to be critical and provide your feedback as thoroughly as you can. Good, critical community feedback can truly make a difference between good games and great ones, and nobody knows this better than Bungie (Halo vets will remember the old Optimatch Forum here on Bungie.net). But at the same time, please be patient, understanding, and reasonable. You're all still here because you're all still playing Destiny -- keep that in mind too and ask yourselves why. Thinking about the process of game development in addition to your own preferences and desires will help avoid temper flare-ups and anger that do not help anyone and, in fact, might make this whole process a lot harder.
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  • Ya, its been awhile. Hope all is well

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  • Edited by LeighmurBJJ: 10/23/2014 7:23:48 AM
    [quote] it does seem that some people want something along these lines [/quote] Absolutely this. I'm ok with the fact that the game wasn't everything it was built up to be; I'm disappointed but ok with it. I'm not ok with Bungie trying to pass of things like the queen's bounties and iron banner as new content. Acknowledging [b]specifically[/b] that elements of the game (the story sticks out the most in my mind) were [b][i][u]not at all[/u][/i][/b] what they were promising them to be would go a long way with myself and many others, especially if they want our business in the future. Basically, just keep it -blam!-ing real with us. I can accept mistakes, but when they try to be too politically correct/sound like a customer service rep, it just sounds insulting to me. Edited for spelling

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  • This guy needs DeeJ's job.

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  • He has a better job lol.

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  • Excellently stated.

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  • I like this, I've been playing Destiny since launch and for the most part it's been awesome. All I really need is more content and I understand that'll take time. I just feel it would have been nice to have gotten more meat in my burger lol, maybe i'm being greedy. Looking forward to seeing how this game evolves over time!

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  • Well worded and reasoned response. I agree with the sentiment that bombarding DeeJ with questions/complaints (some good, some simply insulting) and then expecting him or anyone else at Bungie to respond is a foolhardy expectation to have and many can see where DeeJ is coming from and the role he has here. However, to your first point, the "volume of feedback" is indicative of people's disappointment and why it keeps mounting on. I mean you must see that instead of spending time playing the game and finding enjoyment in it like Bungie's past games due to modes like Forge, custom games, theater mode, firefight, etc they're coming here to vent over the severe lack of content or problems with what little content exists. So while I think most people are smart enough to understand that every post (nor most posts) can't get a response and won't get one that doesn't excuse the source of the problem being the game. I have been playing Bungie games for a long time and I can tell you never have I seen this amount of dissatisfied people all saying the same things. I mean sure, Halo 2 had it's campaign complaints (the ending that just ended) or Reach's varied complaints but the focus was more on the community around Halo, not how the games screwed up. The community just has very little else to do other than come here and complain. To your second point, where I can see where you are coming from and is a likely reason for DeeJ's vague statements, in my opinion, and many other people's opinion apparently, is that is not the right thing to do in this case. While it is true saying something specific and having that thing not happen could end up a worse result than simply not saying the specific thing, the end result though is a slowly building tension and frustration that keeps mounting until eventually someone at Bungie says some foot in mouth thing that makes everything come back front and center and ends up making things far worse. I think if information can be laid out in a clear and candid way most people would be fine with specifics and if mistakes happen along the way leading to changes to those specifics [b]tell the truth[/b]. That's all that people want. I think most people understand things happen and not everything can go the way we want it to, but having vague assurances without facts just puts everyone in a perpetual state of "on edge", not knowing whether or not extremely needed improvements will be made, or when. There are a lot of games coming out between the time Destiny came out and December when the first DLC is supposed to launch and people just want to know if there is any point to play Destiny over any other game. The developer's hotfix updates are good in that they address specifics, but they're often done after the patch is pushed instead of before and while occasionally information from such updates is gleaned from DeeJ in weekly updates there still is just far too little communication about what Destiny players can expect. Please don't misinterpret the volume of feedback as "haters just hating". We want this game to succeed and we're commenting on this forum because we like this company and want it to succeed. Your third point is rather overly defensive and also rings a little empty. We get Bungie are still actively working on the game, as are most developers for any game they plan to support post release. However, we also are aware of Activision's contract with this franchise and that only so much time will be given to Destiny before dev time needs to be spent on Destiny 2 and that is where people's concern lies. We appreciate the patches and sort of appreciate the events, despite their poor execution and marketing, and we will keep our eyes peeled for whatever awaits on in the future but again, Bungie brought all of this on themselves and it won't stop until either the gameplay experience is far more satisfying than it currently is or until Bungie straight up cuts off communication (which won't happen).

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  • Thanks for the response -- great post. [quote]However, to your first point, the "volume of feedback" is indicative of people's disappointment and why it keeps mounting on. I mean you must see that instead of spending time playing the game and finding enjoyment in it like Bungie's past games due to modes like Forge, custom games, theater mode, firefight, etc they're coming here to vent over the severe lack of content or problems with what little content exists. [/quote]I do see your point, and I really wasn't trying to say anything otherwise -- sorry if I implied that. My first point was really meant to address complaints that "DeeJ never responds to criticism" and similar posts that are peppered throughout this thread and this forum. [quote]To your second point, where I can see where you are coming from and is a likely reason for DeeJ's vague statements, in my opinion, and many other people's opinion apparently, is that is not the right thing to do in this case. While it is true saying something specific and having that thing not happen could end up a worse result than simply not saying the specific thing, the end result though is a slowly building tension and frustration that keeps mounting until eventually someone at Bungie says some foot in mouth thing that makes everything come back front and center and ends up making things far worse.[/quote]You make a good point. I think that the arguments are good both ways, and to be quite honest, the "most ideal" method of communicating is probably is a mix of the two. [quote]Your third point is rather overly defensive and also rings a little empty. We get Bungie are still actively working on the game, as are most developers for any game they plan to support post release. However, we also are aware of Activision's contract with this franchise and that only so much time will be given to Destiny before dev time needs to be spent on Destiny 2 and that is where people's concern lies. [/quote]I have definitely seen people express the concern you noted (re only so much time being given to Destiny before Destiny 2 ramps up). But I have also seen numerous posts saying things along the lines of "Bungie has our money, now they only care about getting more of it." Or whatever. My point was mean to refute that notion, in particular, and to just give people the same reminder that you did in your post -- we want the game to succeed, and so does Bungie. Accusing them of money-grubbing and post-launch apathy is not productive or helpful. Thanks again for the thoughtful post.

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  • Thanks for your response to the community and to deej. While I'm sure everyone agrees you can't respond to every post, I think people want to see that there opinions are being heard, which should be hopefully reflected in your hotfixes. While I appreciate your time, I have to disagree on several points. Firstly I think you should be more open and gather opinion before you consider "fixing" things. The vex mythoclast for instance is now being reverted in pve as I understand, hopefully the random teleporting at the atheon fight will follow suit. If you tell us before hand what you are thinking of doing you will get feedback, instead of backtracking and having to reverse silly decisions. Secondly I'm sure you are working hard on Dlc which is needed and while we appreciate that, many of us, I. E. Me have already paid for that, so I take that as a given. Instead of these minor tweaks you have done and subsequently undone, it would be nice if you could work harder to fix some of the real problems. I, like many people are still receiving animal flavoured error codes, some people can't even play they are so bad. This is more pressing than worrying about who goes through the portal in the vault of glass. I don't have this problem, but I read people wanted to you have an option to dim the hud for plasma tvs to prevent image burn, they said they couldn't play the game for long. The loot system is a joke, I will not go further on this point. But these are things that people want fixing much more than the fixed you have some to date. So, please can you address the problem the community are actually experiencing and not just the problems you perceive. This should be a two way street, be more open and embrace our feedback please

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  • He doesn't work for bungie. He's a volunteer forum mod..

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  • I'm not sure whether your post is addressed to me or Bungie, but just to be clear, I'm a community member just like you. I don't work for Bungie.

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  • I guess to both, I just think that being more open with us guys the players, and asking for feedback in advance, might make us happier and your/bungies job easier/less stressful. Trawling the forums there are plenty of good suggestions that should be really easy and quick to implement. For instance I'm level 29, the tiger strikes are ridiculously easy, to the point I rarely play them as they without fail give me useless blue engrams. Therefore only the raid and the weeklies are interesting, which can be played once or twice a week. It shouldn't be so hard to introduce level 26, 28 and 30 strikes with increasing chances of better loot the higher you go. This I assume is pretty easy to implement, while you work on new dlc. No sensible person is saying you should double the content overnight, but there are lots of quick easy suggestions from us players, you could do which would prevent most of the complaints

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  • Edited by Deum: 10/23/2014 2:20:51 AM
    I have been playing Destiny for a while now, I want to state that, and it may be shattered thought, Destiny is a great game. But its not the game I wanted, at least it isn't as of now, it feels shattered. And I can tell that hands have been bled to carry what we have. My thought is this, we all want to know the inner workings of the game. But its so hard to say game when referring to Destiny. It feels closed, and I cant understand what it really is. I feel as though theres no knowledge as to what this game is about and whether or not we even are meant to understand. In short I've finished my story mode, but what does that have to do with Aetheon, what are the jovians etc. I get you dont have inside information and that they are working, I really do. But as a gaurdian forged in light I don't understand why I feel that I've been left in the dark. Fellow fanboy -Kopek_0

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  • Perspective delivered.

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  • "You can fight by my side anytime!"

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  • I just want to chime in and support the idea of having more dialogue like this in these forums. Thank you.

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  • Why did Bungie think it'd be enough to employ only one community manager for a game with 3.2mm daily players?

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  • .. Well you would only need one and his crew of Ninja's to collect and compile community feedback.

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  • "It's better then Bungie LIED to us!" NewsFlash, they did lie to us.

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  • Yes, let's see one example of how they lied to us.......they didn't

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  • Watch the 2013 E3 video

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  • You mean the one with disclaimers that it is a work in progress?

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  • Mmmm, I dont see those. Maybe because they arent there?

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  • More like because everything at E3 is.

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  • That just isn't good enough for me :/

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