Minor grievances? Far from a finished product? 40gb to play? You're awfully laid-back about these issues, also the bugs/roaches part is far from what I actually asked for in my post. Of course my criticism was only for the beta and not the entire game, however the beta is definitely a reflection (no matter how small) of the final game and should be taken as such. First of all a big downloadable game just means it hasn't been compressed properly and really cannot be used to determine the size of the game(titanfall was near 50GB but was it actually that big? No).Also "Minor grievances" just happen to be with the core gameplay which makes them a little more significant than minor like no cockroaches. Destiny is a first person shooter with boring gunplay because of the enemies are simply uninteresting to fight, it is a game about exploration which fails to reward people for exploring (where you see something once and you have seen it all), a loot fest that fails to give loot, an apocalypse game without scavenging, a social game without any useful social features (a marketplace, voice chat, trading etc), a story driven adventure with standard/boring missions(or repetitive in terms of maps/boss battle mechanics) which fails to really engage players. An RPG with seriously terrible side missions. You can call these issues small all you like but you haven't given any real justification for it (these are issues with what we will be doing for most of the game). Sure they cant have everything, but they should at the very least have the basic gameplay mechanics refined and near flawless before release. I also don't buy games that aren't finished especially when they have made no promises of exactly what they will bring into the game to hold them accountable for. Also considering what they have right now in terms of features isn't all that impressive, Borderlands 2 does many things better than Destiny as it stands right now. The only thing destiny has over borderlands right now is multiplayer and graphics. Thats it. Make no mistake if you like it by all means enjoy it, but don't try and say that the game is impressive(especially and RPG) with no depth is great or that the grievances we have are small. Because even professional video game journalists agreed with some of the points stressed here as areas that need considerable improvement. I'm not trying to be aggressive but you see the issues and are simply refusing to seriously hold Bungie to account for these issues. With the game only 2 months from launch (at the time of posting)there is barely any time to make changes since they have to actually manufacture and distribute the game, far from finished isn't good enough for me to buy.

Haha, it's okay to be aggressive. It doesn't bother me, I rolled my eyes a lot. People want the world. There will always be complaints and comparisons made (whether fair or unfair is up to the eye of the beholder). I feel like you're asking for a Skyrim-esque level of interaction with your world, while not taking into account the shared world multiplayer aspect. The random public events. And buttery smooth gameplay. You can say the gunplay was boring, and you're entitled to your opinion. I feel like it was consistent, smooth, and I happened to enjoy it. Agree to disagree, I suppose. But, we can talk about a few of your points. Like I said, I tend to disagree with most of your points because you're obviously steadfast in your opinion, I'm not just posting lightly and with nothing to back it up. I have opinions with more than just a "My Opinion" behind them as well. [quote]Destiny is a first person shooter with boring gunplay because of the enemies are simply uninteresting to fight[/quote] If you want to judge a game by it's beta, then by all means, that's up to you. We saw such a small bit of the game, if anything, the tutorial of the game was given to us. We still haven't seen Vex or Cabal in action, or even everything the Hive has in store (can't wait to see more of Hellmouth!). You used Borderlands 2 as an example, I put hundreds of hours into that game. Their guns are ridiculous and some weird and what not, that's their cornerstone. Their comedic play on the story is fun, and it's them. I enjoy both types of gunplays in their own way. [quote]it is a game about exploration which fails to reward people for exploring (where you see something once and you have seen it all)[/quote] Strongly disagreed. I'm guessing you're referring to Old Russia? Or Hellmouth even? Did you happen to explore and find the ?? Creatures blocking areas? Find the doors that wouldn't open? Much of the world was walled off or simply blocked by high level foes. If you did run by, you'd notice the area was barren because it wasn't filled in. It was a beta. You weren't meant to be there. In the full game, it is. If you want, I could use Skyrim as an example of exploration, one of the biggest games made period. Was there a reason to go to places more than once other than the towns? Really? Not really. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. That exploration is only rewarding if you have to go back? Anyways, it's the biggest game Bungie has ever made by far. I'll wait to judge their space for whenever I get a chance to see the full game. [quote]a loot fest that fails to give loot,[/quote] If you can find where it's referred to as a "loot fest" or compared to "Borderlands 2 level of guns" then I'll eat my words, but I don't believe they claim that. They give less, more worthwhile loot. Rather than giving you tons of white/greens/crap to sift through like I did in Borderlands (1 and 2). [quote]an apocalypse game without scavenging[/quote] Are you comparing it to Fallout and other post-apocalyptic games? I wouldn't mind seeing scavenging in the game, but, to me, it's not a big deal not being in there. There's plenty of ways to make glimmer to me. If you want it to fit into the lore, it's been hundreds of years since the golden age, much of everything might already be scavenged out. Hard telling. But one of those points where we disagree, it's just not that big of a deal to me. Agree to disagree. [quote]a social game without any useful social features (a marketplace, voice chat, trading etc)[/quote] Now, I am SO happy there isn't an auction house or trading system in place. You have no idea how much of a relief it is for me. Look at Diablo 3 (PC version). It was basically a buy your item game from the AH, or get someone to give you items. What's the fun in that? Or in other games, chinese farmers farm loot and sell it, or sell glimmer for real money, and it lowers the overall value of items in game. If you compare to Borderlands 2, there's a ton of duping and glitching in that game, and I'd rather never deal with that. The voice chat, I can agree. I think that for Strikes and Crucible, chat should be enabled by default. I think you should have the option to turn it off, or mute individually, but to at least have it on by default. [quote]a story driven adventure with standard/boring missions(or repetitive in terms of maps/boss battle mechanics) which fails to really engage players. [/quote] I personally enjoyed the story and its presentation so far. My brother did as well. And the fights were fun. Keep in mind, we only saw the beta, practically a big tutorial. There are a lot of strikes, story missions, enemies, and bosses we haven't even caught wind of yet. I think you're being a little presumptuous. [quote]An RPG with seriously terrible side missions.[/quote] Sorry. I think I missed where Destiny was classified as an RPG. I believe Bungie refers to it as a Shared world shooter? Something along those lines. But hey, if we're comparing it to stuff that it isn't called, Destiny is a shit platformer ;). [quote]Borderlands 2 does many things better than Destiny as it stands right now. The only thing destiny has over borderlands right now is multiplayer and graphics. Thats it. [/quote] Destiny has Mobility. I enjoy the Destiny story personally, but completely different than Borderlands so you can't really compare them. Apples to oranges. Destiny may also be bigger than Borderlands 2. We don't know, we haven't seen the full product yet. Borderlands 2 is also a seasoned IP. It's a sequel. Lets compare Destiny 2 to Borderlands 2 and see where they lay, eh? :D I don't mean this as an attack. Just sharing my opinion. I did not take your OP lightly, and I respect your opinion. It's just different than mine. Not saying any less valuable, or more, just different.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-7-big-questions-we-have-after-playing-the-dest/1100-6421254/ http://www.gamespot.com/articles/destiny-not-getting-major-changes-after-last-month/1100-6421577/ You obviously enjoyed a the game and it's fair enough that you don't agree. You say I want the world and said that you rolled your eyes a lot, that's fine but you should check out what Star Citizen is doing with a budget of $50 million as a new IP and then look at what Destiny is achieving with $500 million as a new IP. They may be on different platforms but the quality of these games couldn't be further apart. The difference in quality is ridiculous considering their budgets. I also never asked for a Skyimesque world as nothing I stated in my initial statement requires that level of player interaction. As for the gunplay I am just going to point to the poll, comments and review above and state that it really isn't just me. In terms of evidence that these issues exist and that I am not simply making them up (just holding myself to the same standard) my evidence is this. When 75% of 3000 individuals claim that these issues exist and need to be addressed (statistically that is beyond a significant sample size) I can easily say that these problems are there. With many people voicing their concerns in the comments below as well (even professionals). As for the specific points I brought up. You are correct in saying that we have not yet seen the Vex and Cabal but we have seen the Fallen and the Hive and they both fight relatively the same with little to no significant difference between much of them. People in the comments have referred to Destiny as a safari shooting gallery and from what we all experienced it was. I will not comment on the full game because obvious reasons but the beta is a free for all. In regards to exploring I was mainly referring to mother Russia, also I did sneak past those enemies (did you?) who could kill you easily and what I actually found wasn't even worth looking for (just another chest barely worth opening) and a ghost (slightly better). Skyrim was a great example of exploration because at the end of every tunnel and every cave there was something worth fighting for, this is absent in Destiny which forces you through the same maps several times over in different directions or places a random chest somewhere and pats itself on the back. Interesting events could occur in skyrim anywhere and the side missions were far more interesting (although not many games can be as great as skyrim was). Exploration was also an issue brought up by official reviewers. In regards to loot one of your main aims as a player is to get better guns from random drops, I was referring to the mechanic more than what they had explicitly stated. I often did find tonnes of white crap on enemies that I completely ignored as did many others. But this is just a subjective conflict of opinion. Yes I am comparing it to Fallout. Scavenging in a post apocalyptic setting makes sense and should be included. While it has been quite some time since the invasion. Due to the nature of the situation I doubt significant amounts of the areas would be looted by humans. Especially if there is only one city on earth and they use dog fighters to get around the earth especially if you consider that we found one such ship via scavenging as well. It is a good way to get loot that fits the game and is far better than the random chest fest we have right now. I completely disagree with you on the marketplace. Not having a marketplace deprives players of a huge economic resource, because suddenly you have to grind for some drops or guns that you like and the guns you don't want to use but are good go to waste. The game doesn't offer good purchasing options from vendors for hard earned glimmer (majority of the weapons are common quality) and there is no trading. The whole argument behind trading or being given legendary weapons is flawed, as you could easily lock via achievement or something similar. This is a social game but what do we actually gain in terms of this game being online? where is the solid benefits? why do we actually need to be online all the time? from where I stand there is little to be gained by Destiny being always online at the moment. Drop in and out is a nice gimmick but it is rare for players to actually stick together when they meet and playing with friends is still the best option. As for the story missions I really disagree with you here. Mission structure was appalling. We ran around the same map in different directions doing missions that easily could have been clumped together and while it can pick up later on I really wasn't invested/hooked by it so far. The bosses were a letdown with the amount of bullets they took to bring down (also pointed out by professional reviewers as being unbalanced). If I am being presumptuous there are 2300 people and other professionals who are too as well (and are justified in doing so). Ok it is a shared world shooter (with RPG elements https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZf8ElL7ji4) with terrible side missions. Slight change same stuff. As for Borderlands being a comparison it is a co-op shooter and is the closest comparison to Destiny as far as titles go so it is more like lemons to limes. Also Destiny does have platforming in it at the endgame so it just might be a shit platformer. All in all we can disagree but my point is 2300 or 75% of 3000 individuals don't agree with me simply because I have an opinion. The professional reviewers don't bring it up because it is my opinion either. These issues exist whether you agree or disagree the evidence is in the poll and reviews. Destiny 2 is not good enough to excuse the game if it launches the same quality as the beta. Roll you eyes as you wish however you are wrong when you say it is simply just me and my opinion.

I think we started off on the wrong foot, and I shouldn't have put that "rolling eyes" comment in there, so sorry about that. Hey, I'm Brad. Nice to meet you. Glad to have a well thought out discussion with a person who knows how to put their thoughts to words. Just a few things and I think we'll be close to done, because most of this is just differing opinions between us and the links you showed. First of all though, facts. They have not spent 500 million on Destiny. People really need to stop throwing that number around. And since you chose gamespot as a source, I will use their own article to prove that. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/destiny-budget-nowhere-near-500-million-bungie-says/1100-6420802/ I checked out Star Citizen, and when I see an actual release date and a list of features they have, then I'll be more than happy to compare. Right now, they can promise a lot, say a lot, but until there's a retail package and they announce what Will and Won't be there on release date, I don't feel like it's a fair comparison. Were one of your links supposed to show me the 75% of 3000 participants that shared your view? Because I didn't see a poll anywhere. Not saying I doubt it, I was just curious. And you say 75% of people agree with "these issues". Are you talking about agreeing with everything you mentioned? Are they all that negative towards so many parts of the game? Whew. I'm not going to comment on enemies and their behaviors anymore after this since we saw such a small slice of it. I was fine with seeing the difference of the[spoiler] Hive on The Moon flooding out of the doors vs The Fallen at Sepiks Prime. Both very different encounters indicative of different races and strategies.[/spoiler] I think we have different ideas of Exploration and look for different things out of it. If you were able to explore Hellmouth on the moon, there wasn't much there. There were enemies. There were chests. There were dead ghosts. But what did I enjoy the most? Exploring it with my brother and seeing all the cool areas. The waves of mobs coming at us from new locations. Finding the shrieker. It was insane fun. Was there anything at the end? Nope. More mobs. Was it still incredibly fun? Yes. Did either of us feel let down at the end of the tunnels from what we had access to? Not a bit. Maybe you want something at the end of every cave. For me, I just enjoy the ride, and loot will follow suit :). Talking about loot, yes, we all got loot we didn't need. Although we could dismantle it in the field so it wasn't taking up space. Also, even you have to admit, there are a ton more crap weapons to sift through in Borderlands than Destiny. About the marketplace, I will link to you another gamespot article. It discusses Diablo 3 having a Auction House system, and then getting rid of it because it undermined their overall core of the gameplay. I'll post the link and the quote below. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/diablo-iii-auction-houses-closing-march-2014/1100-6414544/ [quote]"But as we've mentioned on different occasions, it became increasingly clear that despite the benefits of the AH system and the fact that many players around the world use it, it ultimately undermines Diablo's core game play: kill monsters to get cool loot," he added. [/quote] And that's the same thing that Bungie is saying as a defense to their "No-Trade" model. They want you to earn it. You call it grinding for gear. I call it running strikes with friends because it's fun and loot will come in time! I mean, unless you're in a race here for server 1st or something, I'd say enjoy it. If the game ever becomes a grind, then that's a bad sign. I grinded in WoW for armor and gah, some of the most painstaking time of my life spent right there! I guess what I'm saying is that if Blizzard and Bungie both come to a similar idea, it probably shouldn't be disregarded as a dumb move. They're both industry leaders in what they do. I agree with you on social aspects are currently lacking. I stated that above. Once again, on the topic of the 2300 out of 3000 agreeing with you, not sure where that poll is. If you're referring to the bullet sponge mentality they took with the devil walker, I see what you're meaning. But if you want to compare this to Borderlands 2, since you say that's the closest thing to it, wouldn't you say most mobs in Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode are bullet sponges? I would. Took forever to solo Tiny Tina's DLC. For-Ev-Er. Those skeletons had so much HP! It was honestly ridiculous. I spent a good 15-20 minutes I think jumping around the wizard using an infinity pistol because I ran out of ammo IN ALL MY OTHER GUNS. So yeah, bullet sponges aren't unique to Destiny. If you believe the game is that poor (along with, obviously, 75% of other players from this poll you're referencing) then I don't understand why you're here. Scratching an itch until Star Citizen comes out maybe? I don't think the Beta/Destiny is a low quality game, and obviously a lot of people agree with that, considering it's the most pre-ordered new IP of all time (per GameStop). Look, it's okay to be opinionated. I have my opinions, and I'm not always right, nor are my opinions any less or more valuable than yours. Although I noticed the 500 mil thing was wrong, everything else you said isn't automatically discarded sir. I'm sharing my opinion. Although it differentiates from yours, it doesn't automatically make it wrong. Although I would like to see the poll you refer to multiple times in your post! Thanks for the discussion!

Not gonna lie, my had is getting sore from scrolling through our conversation ^_^ I'm Mason by the way. Ahh the poll was in my initial post and can show the numbers (the links were just for reviews as is) I am not sure if you can see the results by hovering your mouse over the options after you vote but that is how I got the calculation. Also I'm just enjoying good conversation/debate. The budget link you sent me is fair although I didn't attribute much of the $500 mil to Destiny's development. I estimated roughly $100 million for the creation and introduction of the IP and the rest of the budget spread over the rest of the 10 years. When I compared it to Star Citizen I put the budget that Destiny is getting down to $50 million minimum for the first iteration making it a good comparison to star Citizen in terms of budgets as it is now. Star Citizen is expected to release end of 2015 with the stages of alpha already occurring and these are promises they are legally liable for https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/2368118#Comment_2368118 and the full list of features are here https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals I cant deny that borderlands has many more guns to sift through. To be fair with your Blizzard link auction house they had far more problems with implementation and their concept (people getting hacked, real money transactions etc.). I am pretty sure it is just PR and damage control, I am almost certain they just screwed it up royally as most of Diablo 3 in general isn't their finest moment in terms of business decisions. Also since Destiny isn't a loot fest the underlying problem pointed out by your quote isn't so supportive especially since WOW has ways for players to Trade. But that aside I think we can agree that how it is done is important as it can be a liability. Borderlands 2 UVH mode isn't a good comparison, the normal run through is. It is without a doubt a bad thing and I don't commend either IP for it. But that issue is another topic in itself and I am not sure we can say much more other than it should be avoided. I do believe that the Beta was poor, but I have to play the final to judge the full game. Why am I here? My initial reasons is that I wanted to give constructive feedback back to Bungie in regards to the Beta held ages ago, I was also interested if anyone felt the same way I did about it. After all if it was just me then the issue is with me not the game itself, Right?. The reason I stay is to try to get Bungie to change the game by giving this feedback with thousands of others and responding to those who take the time to read my opinion then in return, give their own. As for the pre-order count even I still have my pre-order as it would be childish to just cancel my preorder after playing a snippet of the final game. But that doesn't mean I am going to keep the game after launch, after all with money back guarantees there is no risk in pre-ordering a game you are unsure about (also selling collectors editions online can net you a 50% return on investment within 1.5 years which is pretty damn good). I don't hate Destiny or want to see it fail, I just want it to be as good as many people expected it to be. I bought the game because I wanted to have fun with my friends in an open sci-fi shooter adventure and what I have seen was to me and others a repetitive sci-fi MMO shooter which I was boring to play.

Great post. Sorry for such a delayed reply, I didn't ignore it, but my birthday celebration weekend came up and I refuse to visit forums when my gf is around haha. Star Citizen is ambitious, but when it gets closer to time I think people will already be talking Destiny 2 and this game could be really something different by the time that comes around (given DLCs and online tweaks and what not). I'll wait til closer to then to compare the 2, if I do, I'm not a PC player so I won't have a lot of reasons to keep up on it. They are gifted people with quite some vision though! I'm all about start-ups so more power to them. I played WoW for many years, and the way they implemented it with Bind-on-Pickup vs Bind-on-Equip is a good idea, and even with Bind-on-Account items, and that's how they preserved some of their character with their items. I know Bungie probably doesn't want to carbon copy their system but it's honestly the best way to have trade but still have items that are unique to having accomplished certain things in game. I'm okay with it, but I can see where you would want a trade system in place. Perhaps with the much, much easier leveling system in Destiny, they intend for you to use your equipment on one of your 3 characters, instead of trading it to someone who has already invested 50 hours just to get to max level? lol. Just a guess though! I re-read your poll and original post, and I think I read it in a negative tone, when it was more subjective than opinionated. You posted purely improvements to the game, not really opinionated issues against the game, so of course the poll will be better. It's dinner at pizza hut, do you want to grab ice cream on the way home? Who's going to say no to that?! Terrible people, that's who. You have a good game, but add more life to the enemies and environment, it will be better. Of course they'll get on board with that :) even I can't say no to that really. I suppose it didn't hop out as much to me, but I didn't play solo often. Spent most of the time with my brother and we were just BSing and enjoying the time. If I were rolling solo though those things may have been more glaring. What platform are you playing on? I feel like we've traded novels back and forth and it'd be a shame if you're playing on PS4 and I don't get to run with you sometime!

Yeah that makes sense. Star Citizen is really PC focused so if you don't have one (or don't plan to get one) there really isn't a point in following it closely, although it is still the best start-up out there. As for Destiny 2 I really don't like the use of it as an excuse for anything from my perspective (but that is just my opinion). I also have no problem with some weapons being locked (to keep them distinctive), for me it is more about increasing player cooperation and building a better group experience so players can have a smoother co-op experience. As for my initial post I had to be more subjective as it is hard to be objective with a test build and limited access to the game (with little idea of what changes were in store) as well as put forward ideas with little information about the development. The best I could do was gather data via a poll to determine whether people agree with me and the issues/solutions I raised for constructive feedback purposes, as for your ice cream comparison it is fair enough because my post really is biased to one side. . Since I ran solo most of the time, the issues were very pronounced. I ran right up to the fallen's face on hard and the AI issue really stood out when I just stood statically in front of them. It was like seeing a crack in glass then pushing on it and watching the cracks spread across the entire mirror, once you noticed the issue it was everywhere. For myself I will be playing on PS4 chilling with my light up Peter Dinklage from the Ghost edition [url]http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Haters+Gonna+Hate_0dd058_3113024.jpg[/url] ( I made the switch after the announcement of the Xbox ones always online etc. Although I really miss the controllers) so we probably wont be able to run together unfortunately. What do you have?

I'll be on Ps4, picking up the white bundle on release night with my brother at midnight. So I won't be on Ps4 until then, but we'll be playing as much Destiny as possible when it comes out! So, my PSN is RadBrad31, and it'll be the same on the 4. Lucky on the ghost edition! I wanted limited but couldn't talk myself into spending more than the almost 470 some with tax I did on the bundle lol. See ya in game in a couple weeks!

I enjoyed reading both of your opinions. It was a good debate/discussion. You both had very good points and suggestions. A very good read.