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3/14/2013 7:27:31 PM
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Richard Dawkins on Abortion
[url=https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins]From his personal twitter account:[/url]
[quote]With respect to those meanings of "human" that are relevant to the morality of abortion, any fetus is less human than an adult pig[/quote]
[quote]"Human" features relevant to the morality of abortion include ability to feel pain, fear etc & to be mourned by others[/quote]
[quote]"I dare you to say that to a broken hearted woman who has miscarried." She would not have an abortion anyway, so irrelevant.[/quote]
[quote]Yes, anything can be mourned. If you are going to mourn your fetus, you are free to not have an abortion[/quote]
[quote]Of course potential to be human is among fetus' qualities. But my pig comparison was careful to specify "relevant to morality of abortion."[/quote]
[quote]"Genetically a fetus is more human." Yes. Another reason my pig comparison was careful to specify "relevant to morality of abortion."[/quote]
[quote]My criterion for "relevant to morality of abortion" is standard consequentialist morality. Opponents follow absolutist morality. Simple.[/quote]
[quote]"Parent might mourn daughter's fetus, even if she herself doesn't — relevant to the morality?" Yes, but daughter paramount. It's her body.[/quote]
[quote]"Right but that doesnt mean fetus gets zero weight." I never said it did. I said less weight than a pig. I hope that is not zero?[/quote]
[quote]The most important moral question in abortion debate is "Can it feel pain?" Late abortuses may, but you don't have to be human to feel pain[/quote]
[quote]Unlike many pro-choice friends, I think fetal pain could outweigh woman's right to control her own body. But pig pain matters too.[/quote]
[quote]Everything I've said in this argument assumes consequentialist moral philosophy. If you're an absolutist you obviously won't agree. Simple.[/quote]
[quote]"I know several broken-hearted (pro-choice) women following abortion." I sympathise. They balanced all, brought all to mind. And chose.[/quote]
[quote]Woman's rights over her own body are extremely important. So is pain. At what age can fetus feel pain? Can pig feel more?[/quote]
[quote]Pig doesn't have human DNA, human potential or human IQ. It probably does have human capacity to feel pain. Aborted fetus probably doesn't[/quote]
[quote]My hair and fingernails are human but don't feel pain when I cut them. Embryo before brain develops doesn't feel pain. Late fetus? Pig?[/quote]
tl;dr He's pro-choice
Thoughts on his tweets? Spot on or completely immoral?
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Immoral of course.
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1 ReplyI read that like Mordin Solus...
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1 ReplyEdited by A 3 Legged Goat: 3/15/2013 9:03:29 PMI never really had an opinion to say on abortion mostly because I felt it wasn't my place as a dude. But I've known several women who've gone through with it, and it began to upset me seeing as how all but one of them were just irresponsibly getting laid. The comment "I hate condoms, but I'm sick of getting abortions" is when I realized what the problem was. The way I see it, if you intentionally choose to screw around without some form of contraceptives and you get pregnant, you shouldn't be permitted to abort. The whole reason preventative measures are there is to ensure you don't have a kid. So we get these girls with this attitude of "Oh who cares I'll just get rid of it and continue screwing." On the one hand, you wouldn't want one of those women to be your mother. But that's still a person living consequence-free and essentially getting away with a degree of murder. You can attempt to justify it by "Oh it wasn't alive yet" or "It wouldn't know the difference", but either way it would have been born at some point. Unearthing a seed is only slightly different from chopping down a tree. Obviously r.ape and life threatening conditions are exempt from this though. At the end of the day, it's not my problem what somebody else does to their body. But I can't help but be bothered by it when those are the kind of wives/mothers in this generation, and when society says it's okay.
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Neither. I believe there is a happy medium.
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6 RepliesImagine you heard two girls taking. One girl tells the other "I slept with some guy" Other girl laughs and says "no way? What if you get pregnant?" and the other girl replies "Oh who cares I can get an abortion" It's her body but I'd be mad cause of her attitude.
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2 RepliesI don't get it. People say he's a dick, but all he does is bluntly use logic and facts. Does that make someone an asshole? That you were hurt because he's saying the truth?
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14 RepliesI have nothing against atheists in general, but I've always though Dawkins and Atheists that are condescending to theists and treat themselves like some sort of intellectually superior master race were kinda dick-ish.
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2 RepliesEdited by Obi Wan Stevobi: 3/15/2013 1:34:57 PMI watched people go nuts over those tweets. I think most people failed to grasp the point he was making with the pig. Basically, he is saying that abortion is immoral if the fetus feels pain. That is saying he disagrees with late term abortion, and that was meant as a counter argument to those that say a fetus is not human until birth, so abortion should be legal until that point. He's saying that a pig is not human either, but if it feels pain, it shouldn't be subjected to it. He's pro-choice, but doesn't agree with abortions after the fetus has developed enough to feel pain. That managed to piss everyone off. Saying a fetus can feel pain at some point made pro-choice people rage, and comparing a fetus to a pig made pro-life people rage, seemingly missing the point that he was making their case in a way that would make sense to non-religious types that don't buy the soul at conception argument.
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6 RepliesPeople still look up to this guy?
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1 ReplyTo those who say that abortion is murder, I have to say, well, maybe murder isn't as bad as we all thought, then.
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5 RepliesI just want Richard Dawkins and madmaxepic in a room together. That would be some funny shit.
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I would like to remind everyone, remember the diference between OPINIONS and FACTS.
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Edited by Diplomat: 3/15/2013 12:44:53 AMI've never liked Dawkins, he's a bit of a dick, and he's nowhere near as brilliant as Hitchens was. Sad, really.
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4 Replies"A fetus is less human than an adult pig." Stopped reading. Muted. Gtfo
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Edited by HM Rob: 3/14/2013 10:11:04 PMI would totally have an abortion at my age, simply because because I couldn't afford it. Plus, I don't really "love" the girl I'm dating yet, so there's no way I'd want to raise a child with her (yet). But then doesn't change the fact that it's still relatively immoral and wrong to kill another person. There's no way to morally justify it. I mean, you can fiscally and "intelligently" justify it, bu the fact of the matter is that you're killing a small human. Oh, and by no means is it a "right". It's another INNOCENT human being, making it an obvious privilege.
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lolmorals
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5 RepliesWell at least they don't feel pain when they get sucked out. I'm guessing these are very early stages.
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Abortion is so controversial I have really never made a decision on which argument I believe in. I can't tell whether a fetus is a life or not. Although, I do acknowledge that a fetus cannot do a lot of things that an actual baby can do outside the womb.
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I think parents should have the choice. No point bringing a child into the world if you arnt ready or prepared to care for it properly.
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6 RepliesEdited by Divine Thunder2: 3/14/2013 7:40:56 PMI disagree. I've looked up procedures of abortions (btw, i was pro-life even before then) and I can't believe the things they do and used to do. I mean, do most people that support the right to an abortion even know what the hell happens during one? Eh, I guess people are okay with ripping a baby apart one by one and then putting it back together outside of the mother's body like a jigsaw puzzle.
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I got into an argument with someone on Facebook when they posted a picture of these tweets...
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I disagree, a fetus is already on its way to becoming a human being. If you really mustn't care for the child, then put it up for adoption. I am aware that in cases of -blam!-, it's not the mother's choice. But still, I'd vie for adoption. It beats killing the child for me.
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29 RepliesThe abortion debate is a pointless one to have. Abortion is legal in every first world nation I'm aware of. I can assure you that that's never going to change, because societies tend to become more liberal and progressive over time.
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I disagree with his weighing fetuses to be worth less than an adult Pig, while I am pro choice, I am opposed to abortions (hence, I believe that women have the right, but I don't approve of the activity unless there are extenuating circumstances). Every one of us was once a fetus, and if our mothers decided to abort us we would not exist, the humans that will come from those fetuses will be no less human than we are.
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Edited by HurtfulTurkey: 3/14/2013 7:41:18 PMI had no idea that morality could be quantitatively described. Unfortunately for him, fetuses are human organisms from conception. The argument of morality hardly seems appropriate for a scientist, but isn't that what he's famous for? [quote]The most important moral question in abortion debate is "Can it feel pain?" Late abortuses may, but you don't have to be human to feel pain[/quote] And you don't have to feel pain to be a human. It seems clear he doesn't understand the opposition, and as usual concocts strawman arguments to suit his opinion. [quote]My hair and fingernails are human [/quote]Surely an evolutionary biologist would know better than to make such a statement.
