[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] snowmanaxt7 Fast forward half a year, and now there are four of them free to do as they please, with powers they intend not for the bettering of the community but for their own egotistical purposes. Job well done? Well, they must be good, if Bungie picked them. But Bungie didn’t, since nobody from Bungie, save Frankie and KPaul whose main interests lie in HBO and not the site they’re contracted to work for, really frequents the community. Achronos does his bit in the Septagon and occasionally travels further afield to answer in-depth or plain arrogant queries, but that’s not involving in the community on the whole. Again, the lack of a community guy is salient.[/quote] KPaul's contract is over, he doesn't work for Bungie anymore. And he originally was active a lot in that community. And I don't really care if you don't like that they post in HBO - there are other communities around Bungie games other than the one here, and they are just as deserving as you guys. And, by the way, I read and watch way more of this site than you give me credit for - just because I don't respond doesn't mean that I'm not listening. There is simply too much to respond to. It is easy to say nothing is happening when you don't have an inside track on everything. We give a lot of inside track compared to most developers, and I think you'll find that I am going to be somewhat dismissive of this particular claim (that we aren't participating here). Even Brian does his best to watch the goings on around here, despite the high amount of noise around here. I think the rest of the community team does a pretty good job in picking up the slack. [quote]Nosferatu_Soldie is another name of which I can make an example, though not that I really wish to since I, at least when he used to visit Bungie.net, liked him a great deal. Here was a promising new member who apparently had quite the social objectives, which isn’t a bad thing considering he didn’t act like an arse-kissing jerk publicly nor, from what I’d seen, privately. Yet in very little time at all he was promoted to the status of ninja, and here certain TFM members, ironically in that their members became moderators in practically the same manner, were outraged. The explanation for his upgrading was, apparently, that he’d played World of Warcraft with Bungie and had got to know them quite well.[/quote] That's not the whole story. He's been around a lot longer than that. Give us a little credit, here. And besides... what exactly is your complaint about him other than your ill-informed story of how he became a moderator? [quote]He, like Jim after his acquisition of powers, faded away from Bungie.net and ceased to be quite the superb members they once were. Granted, both had plenty of personal excuse, but even when they returned more permanently the activity levels didn’t increase. Recently, too, Nosferatu became a master moderator, though his contributions to Bungie.net during the period before that were negligible. Proof of the social structure of moderator selection, and also the hypocrisy when the claim is made that moderators are picked based on contributions. That said, it’d still be excellent if he were on more often, as with so many good members of the community jumping ship, every remaining one really counts.[/quote] Now, you're just out in left field. Moderators are picked on community involvement. However, that isn't the only criteria, and we're not only talking about THIS community. Furthermore, as I'm sure dmbfan and impurity will tell you - moderating requires that you watch a little bit what you say, because you are viewed as an "official" mouthpiece, even when you're not. I'm sure the other mods can expand on this a bit. The only one who probably didn't really alter much of what he said or did was Shishka - but he didn't make any friends because he didn't take any crap from you. Of course, that prevented a lot of you from incurrring my far worse wrath... [quote]The VII Toast affair springs to mind. He seemed a nice enough fellow – until he was elected a moderator, at which point reality surfaced and he was revealed for the savage power freak he truly is. The problem is, the community and its pleas for action against his transgressions were ignored, and it took until the senior ninjas started to take notice for him to be brought to justice. This process took well over a year, and he had already wrought considerably havoc upon the site, deleting posts, thoroughly deceiving users and banning others for no reason. During his reign, he was undoubtedly responsible for the selection of yet another poor ninja choice, and perhaps more than one. More damage done to the community. If the worst, most blatant abuser takes about a year and a half to be dealt with, it is distressing to consider that he was not the only one to have taken his privileges lightly.[/quote] Yeah, that's not how it happened. Toast started out as a good moderator, got a few warnings, and then I asked him to make a choice, and he chose not to be a moderator anymore. And don't you DARE try to infer quality of subsequent moderators on his activities - that is not a logical progression. Furthemore - it should be known that every single moderator gets pretty much constant claims of biased or unfair treatment. Well, except for Jeremiah and myself. We just get death threats. But anyway, all I will say about that is you are missing a huge part of the story about that, and assuming that it was ignored or overlooked is not accurate. [quote]I think it is fair testament to the issues with moderating now that impurity quit his post as ninja after a short while indeed. Here was a guy who had countless discussions about the betterment of the community in olden times, who always sees the best in people and who at the same time opposes snobbery. It was a good day for all those concerned with the community’s progression and improvement when he was selected, but I think he began to realise that it was no longer possible to use his powers to any true end, and that modship had become nothing but a surface appearance. Most were content to carry on, knowing this, but he figured that he could help out more as a regular member than as an arse-kissed puppet. Dmbfan was the same, with good intentions, and quit knowing that ultimately his powers would go to waste and his better judgment wouldn’t have any effect. Moderating is a volunteer job at its core, which is fair enough, but it’s supposed to be an opening for the very best of members to serve the community in more than one way.[/quote] Okay, this section is complete and utter bull-blam!-. I'm sorry, but they quit because moderating is hard, and you have to be careful what you say and how you say it. It is hard to enjoy the forums in the same way, and those two just decided that they preferred to just have fun as part of the regular community. Don't make stupid assertions - you're becoming almost as bad as those idiot forum cops who hold moderation up on a pedestal like it is some power trip. It is hard work, and no matter what you do, someone always has something bad to say about you. This relates to the Toast thing too - one thing I always promise the mods is that I have their back to deal with those kinds of things. And quite frankly, most of the things alleged about Toast were very minor our just made up. Only toward the end when he lowered himself to the level of those making crap up about him did things get out of hand. And again I say this kind of made up stuff about "what moderating is" is part of the problem. [quote]With living proof of how more or less anybody who follows the formulae can become a moderator... their personality masks are liable to change on a whim, since it is not really their own character posting, but rather a stereotype with a specific purpose.[/quote] Oh my god, I hope your next is post is better than this one. This is because people can and do make hundreds of spam and troll accounts because they can - there is very little to stop this kind of thing. People routinely trade passports around and let others use their accounts, and such. The moderators know about lots of this, but they can't do much because they don't have the tools to deal with it. It is also out of their job responsibility. Seriously, you went off the deep end with this part. You make lots of incorrect assumptions about moderators and how things work, and use them to support conclusions that aren't even entirely correct based on the assumptions... I'm not trying to pretend everything is all rosy, but you guys are STILL focusing on the wrong thing. Hint: the moderators have very little to do with it... it has to do with the fact that bungie.net does very little to truely encourage positive participation... we have lots of negative reinforcement, but no postive reinforcement.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] snowmanaxt7 So, you’ll excuse the melodrama herein. [/quote] No, I won't excuse it. In any large (we have over half a million regular users, and many more lurkers and one off posters) community, you're going to have lots of different types of people. Some good, some bad. Complaining about the groups that form and the ass-kissing of mods and staff and anything else like that is counterproductive. You can't change people as a large group - you have to start small. I'll read the rest, but understand that you can't eliminate the bad parts of the community here - the way to deal with it is to allow the good stuff to float to the top, and allow users to bypass the crap. [quote]The community can be crudely divided up into a number of groups of very similar personalities[/quote] This is not unique to bungie.net, and is generally a waste of space to talk about. Longer-tenure members are always going to feel superior... but in some ways, they've earned it. Of course, the good ones don't lord it over people, and we have plans for dealing with people who measure themselves by their join date. By the way, in the case of the suck ups... Really people, you need to learn to ignore people. If someone says something, and they're trying to play forum cop (and doing it poorly)... the best thing to do is to simply pretend they didn't post. They have no authority, and they'll probably be reported to the mods. But you don't have to respond to them. They're doing it for attention, and if you refuse to give them that, you've already won. [quote]The next thing they know, they’re playing Halo 2 with Bungie themselves, and a mod offer is waiting in their PM inbox![/quote] Yeah, that's not how it works. [quote]This deceitfulness, not the moronic proletariat, is the stem of rot. Because, make no mistake, ninjas are now picked on connections and connections alone. Formerly, the requirements to take on the ultimate responsibility included the augmenting of the community in some significant manner, and ostensibly this is still the case. Furthermore, the initial batches of moderators actually used their powers to make things happen, such as contests.... etc. I have an example. [/quote] I sure hope so, because your facts on how moderators are selected is rather lacking in detail and a vast oversimplification. [quote]Consider The Frozen Minority, a group of people initially from the community hub known as the Bungie Jumpers. The more exclusive – aristocratic, if you will – of these separated from the main congregation to form their own little haven, complete with some public forum moderators. Have these people ever contributed anything to the wider community? Well, yes, one or two did. Of course, the real work behind their sole project (the Bathroom Reader) is done by those who lack such high statuses. But, for the most part, no, they haven’t. In fact, their actions have even been detrimental towards others. Not too long ago, their troupe embarked on a number of rampages throughout mainly the Halo 3 forum, where they took full advantage of the uninformed masses and/or commoners and had significant fun at their expense. Granted, they’re not the only ones to have done this, but their intentions were malicious and their moderator friends turned a blind eye. Again, they were having fun and a bit of fun isn’t a bad thing, but these people have no idea when to stop, and those of dignity who are aware of their actions – the respectable GameJunkieJim, say – are powerless to stop them without in some way endangering their relationship.[/quote] Hmm... so, what you're telling me is that you saw something happen, and a moderator didn't seem to take care of it? Did you ask a master moderator about it? Did you ask me? There is an appeals/escalation process, you know. These kinds of things get leveled at everyone all the time - yet, when asked when the person never reported it to me as it was happening, nobody ever has an answer. Could it be that it wasn't really a big deal, and is taking on undeserved significance in your mind? Come on, this is a community! Act like it! You complain over and over about the people, but if you can't even be bothered to send a PM to the guy overseeing the moderators (that would be me) when you see this kind of thing, they [i]you are part of the problem[/i]. You don't need to be a moderator to enact change. I am not buying this "woe is us, evil moderator" part of your rant, here.

This will take a while. Let's start at the beginning. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] snowmanaxt7 However, SketchFactor apparently gave up even before the “upgraded” column was implemented – he was after all the Community Guy whose responsibilities, theoretically, included the interaction with the good persons of the Seventh Column.[/quote] Brian's (SketchFactor) job is the Bungie Community Lead - he is responsible for how Bungie is represented to the world. While technically Bungie.net is a part of this, a much bigger part is marketing, press interaction, and other general public relations stuff. There is no real "online community manager". I try to deal with a bit of that, but that is in my free time - that is also technically "not my job." We know this isn't the best situation, but business realities (people cost money) prevent us from quickly fixing it. [quote]Priorities seem to be wrong, also. I refuse to believe that a search feature – and repeat threads will surface, especially in the absence of constant new discussion material and in the presence of the ridiculous “don’t dig up old threads” regulation – is more crucial to a community site than the community itself. Surely resources would have been better spent on the 7th Column in one way or another.[/quote] Search was delayed because I was doing a job that really required two people. Once Chris was hired, he was able to take that project off of my plate and get it done. That is an example of how we are starting to get the people we need to do everything we need to do, and stop pretending the 3 person team of old can do everything. [quote]And so many empty promises. Nobody expects miracles, but when fanfests, an updated column, more interaction from Bungie and a community that has official support are pledged, it’s saddening when they are not fulfilled, and more so when they simply fade away without even a “no, that’s not going to happen”. I wouldn’t will them all to attend massive fan gatherings, because, let’s face it, no other game developers do, but the fact that it’s happened before and future events were promised makes it that little bit worse. I’d much rather see a fantastic Halo 3 than direct community interaction, as I’m sure we all would, but surely the purpose of a site for the community and Bungie’s having of a community team is to interact with their fans? But Bungie is just the core, the very heart of a system composed of many more organs, blood, bones and flesh.[/quote] Every minute spent on the group system is currently a minute spent not working on something cool for Halo 3 (or in the past, Halo 2). The choice for us right now is do we lost game related features or group related features... [b][i]and in EVERY case, the game wins. It is simply no contest.[/i][/b] One of the reasons the groups are getting shut off for a while is that we didn't want to do another half-assed port without taking the time to think them through and really make them interesting. And make no mistake - if we can't make them interesting, the option to leave them turned off is still open. I don't want that option, and neither does Brian. Both him and I are ardent supports of making groups work, but at the same time, we have to give them a place in bungie.net. We aren't in the business of Live Spaces or MySpace... we are in the games business. That must direct our efforts - otherwise, we risk everything for no reason. Anyway, I think the key you have to understand is that with so little people we have to support Halo 2 and Halo 3 - I don't think you realize just what that entails. And I know you'll simply say "get more people"... but it isn't as simple as that.