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#Septagon

1/2/2013 5:10:47 AM
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A huge problem with this community

Before I begin, let me clarify something. This thread is mostly in reference to threads on the Flood, because the Septagon is saturated with employees, moderators, and people dedicated to pleasing the previous two groups, and because the game forums have effectively died. Bungie.net has a culture problem. A culture problem that I believe is detrimental to the growth and success of the website. Hostility is not really something I see talked about much here so I figured this was worth a thread. The Flood's not a pleasant place, and it never really has been. In fact, it got so bad that the Big Man had to step in and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=26466683]do this[/url]. It kind of feels like the entire community, moderators and members both, have forgotten [url=http://www.bungie.net/Help/content_viewer.aspx?link=conduct]that being a jerk is a bad thing.[/url] Anyone who posts often on the Flood can see this. People are constantly tossing around insults, and pretty nasty ones at that. For some reason, no one seems to care anymore - maybe because we're dark, or maybe because we've just all gotten lazy or grown out of being bothered by such things. [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76620787]Just look through a few[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=76616824]pages from a couple of threads made since yesterday.[/url] Let me stop here and say that I am not trying to be negative and judgmental towards the moderation team. I know that holding that position is difficult from experience elsewhere, I know how exhausting and bothersome the job is. I'm aware that moderators can't be everywhere at all times to ban people who are hurling nasty insults at someone. This is just as much a call to members. Every one of us are given a report button so we can help keep the forums clean, but who really uses it unless they're upset over something an OP said? How often do you see a post reported aside from OPs and harmful links? The sheer nastiness that can be seen just by scanning over any somewhat long thread is astounding. Maybe moderators don't ban people within threads because they don't see them. Maybe the same is true for people not reporting a post. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a moderator lock an exceptionally long thread, that everyone knows is nothing but a cluster-blam!- of angry people spewing hate at each other, and not bother to even read the second post. Like I said, I understand when you just don't see it, but why in the hell are people in these huge threads not reporting these types of posts? I know that people will be jerks on the internet, and I'm not expecting it to change. But can we please do something to get rid of this toxicity before new people start pouring in? People have strong opinions on things, and they're certainly entitled to them, but why do you have to insult someone by saying you can't tell if she's a boy or a girl? Why do you have to say nasty things to non-heteros, or females, or people who don't like the same private group as you do? Why is any of this tolerated at all? Allowing this stuff to go on is just running people away from the site, because a civilized person has no reason to spend their time being involved in a community that harbors these types of people. I know what the responses will be to this post. People will tell me how I'm being too sensitive and how it's just the way the internet is. People will tell me I'm one of the jerks. And look, I know I overstep the line sometimes when I'm joking. None of us are perfect, but I don't think asking members to attempt to be decent (and mods to enforce decency when needed) is too much to ask. You can ignore this problem all you want, but I know from talking to others that I'm not the only person who sees this. It's a real problem that needs to be fixed.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gaara444 Why? I hardly ever visit the place, but what's so bad about Sapphire? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] H0gbinlad3n This thread has nothing to do with private groups, but Harlow is the admin of Sapphire, which tends to inspire rage in many. [/quote][/quote] I don't know honestly. The purpose of this thread has been derailed because of internet drama, and I agree that it's silly. I've considered making a thread about internet drama, but that might just create more of it. [Edited on 01.02.2013 5:19 AM PST]

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  • Being a jerk is a good thing, creates entertainment.

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  • I'll admit this community can be pretty hostile, but it's not near as bad as a few other forums I visit. I can't see it changing any time soon to be honest though.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Harlow Bungie.net has a culture problem. A culture problem that I believe is detrimental to the growth and success of the website.[/quote]"Culture problem"? Dude, c'mon. There's a reason it's called The Flood [quote] Hostility is not really something I see talked about much here so I figured this was worth a thread..[/quote]Ok, let's see what u got. [quote] The Flood's not a pleasant place, and it never really has been..[/quote](In your opinion) [quote] In fact, it got so bad that the Big Man had to step in and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=26466683]do this[/url]..[/quote](back in 2008) [quote] It kind of feels like the entire community, moderators and members both, have forgotten [url=http://www.bungie.net/Help/content_viewer.aspx?link=conduct]that being a jerk is a bad thing.[/url].[/quote]Dude, try sending them a PM. [quote] Anyone who posts often on the Flood can see this. People are constantly tossing around insults, and pretty nasty ones at that..[/quote]you mean like; your mom jokes? Anyway, send the mods a PM [quote] Let me stop here and say that I am not trying to be negative and judgmental towards the moderation team. I know that holding that position is difficult from experience elsewhere, I know how exhausting and bothersome the job is..[/quote]Lol, as if [quote] I'm aware that moderators can't be everywhere at all times to ban people who are hurling nasty insults at someone..[/quote]So why post this thread then? [quote] This is just as much a call to members. Every one of us are given a report button so we can help keep the forums clean,.[/quote]As if we can be at all placec at once [quote] but who really uses it unless they're upset over something an OP said? How often do you see a post reported aside from OPs and harmful links?.[/quote]It takes more than one report anyway, so [quote] but why in the hell are people in these huge threads not reporting these types of posts?.[/quote]for the teh lulz [quote] because a civilized person has no reason to spend their time being involved in a community that harbors these types of people..[/quote]Lol, The Flood. Civilized. [quote] It's a real problem that needs to be fixed.[/quote] It's funny because it's true

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  • Why? I hardly ever visit the place, but what's so bad about Sapphire? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] H0gbinlad3n This thread has nothing to do with private groups, but Harlow is the admin of Sapphire, which tends to inspire rage in many. [/quote]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Gaara444 Why do I get the strange feeling all this "Hate" is pouring out from the Drama in the Private Groups? This is exactly why I'm almost rarely active in even the most active of private groups. [/quote] This thread has nothing to do with private groups, but Harlow is the admin of Sapphire, which tends to inspire rage in many.

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  • Why do I get the strange feeling all this "Hate" is pouring out from the Drama in the Private Groups? This is exactly why I'm almost rarely active in even the most active of private groups.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Harlow [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] H0gbinlad3n This community is a cesspit not worth anyone's time; that will never change. There are even people championing that, I don't have to tell you. I suppose your self-awareness and ability to trudge through garbage are admirable.[/quote] Guess you're right. I won't bother anymore.[/quote] Just to clarify, that last line was a general one for the those champions I mentioned. [Edited on 01.02.2013 5:01 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Would you look at that, either Harlow or Jay is proving my point. They can't take the slightest criticism about themselves. I've just been kicked from Sapphire. That's kind of pitiful really.[/quote]Maybe because this isn't a thread about Sapphire and he's tired of dealing with people using this as an opportunity to air their grievances against it instead of discussing the topic at hand?[/quote]It was a grievance of him, not the group. Since we're discussing flaws of certain members, as he's so quick to point out often enough, it's perfectly valid.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] H0gbinlad3n This community is a cesspit not worth anyone's time; that will never change. There are even people championing that, I don't have to tell you. I suppose your self-awareness and ability to trudge through garbage are admirable.[/quote] Guess you're right. I won't bother anymore.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Would you look at that, either Harlow or Jay is proving my point. They can't take the slightest criticism about themselves. I've just been kicked from Sapphire. That's kind of pitiful really.[/quote]Maybe because this isn't a thread about Sapphire and he's tired of dealing with people using this as an opportunity to air their grievances against it instead of discussing the topic at hand?

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  • This community is a cesspit not worth anyone's time; that will never change. There are even people championing that, I don't have to tell you. I suppose your self-awareness and ability to trudge through garbage are admirable.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Harlow [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Would you look at that, either Harlow or Jay is proving my point. They can't take the slightest criticism about themselves. I've just been kicked from Sapphire. That's kind of pitiful really.[/quote] I'm the sole admin. As it were, Sapphire is the one place where I actually can do something about negativity.[/quote]Criticism is not negativity. If you can't take criticism and resort to booting members because of it, then you're not any better than the terrible trolls the Flood has been seeing recently. "Come to Sapphire, you can discuss anything you want that's disallowed in the main forums!" >Mentions criticism of member of Sapphire outside the group >booted Do you not see the hypocrisy?

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Would you look at that, either Harlow or Jay is proving my point. They can't take the slightest criticism about themselves. I've just been kicked from Sapphire. That's kind of pitiful really.[/quote] I'm the sole admin. As it were, Sapphire is the one place where I actually can do something about negativity.

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  • Would you look at that, either Harlow or Jay is proving my point. They can't take the slightest criticism about themselves. I've just been kicked from Sapphire. That's kind of pitiful really.

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  • Well, a bit ironic, that doesn't really invalidate the point. The Flood [i]can[/i] be fairly mean spirited. Internet jerks are something we've all dealt with at one time or another, and the solution is incredibly simple. When it becomes evident that the jerk in question is in fact a jerk, it's best to just discontinue the "discussion," with them. Be the mature one, ignore them, report them if it's severe enough. They're really not interested in using the forum for discussion, but instead for attention and usually to gratify their own sense of self-importance. Not giving them that attention is the best way to deal with them. Maybe it's hard for you, maybe it's easy, but "walking away," as best you can when sitting at a computer makes you the winner and defeats the jerk. Unfortunately not enough people do this, and so we get threads full of people fueling these jerks by enabling them. So remember everyone, as dahuterschuter's lesson of the day, when people start getting nasty, just ask yourself what amount of your precious little time on Earth is best spent dealing with some random person in a corner of a website screaming for attention. The answer should be none.

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  • If I reported every instance I saw of people being jerks, I'd probably get in trouble for "abusing" the report button. And that's because "jerk" is pretty subjective. There's blatantly being a jerk, and that's usually dealt with. Then there's the being a jerk where if you agree with the person, you find yourself not being so angry at him for being a jerk about his point. On the flip side, someone disagreeing with you who's putting his point slightly crudely can also seem really like a jerk. Point is, it's really subjective, and banning for "being a jerk" any more than the current system would catch a [i]lot[/i] of people in the crossfire, and honestly, having to watch my tongue (I'm generally not that offensive of a person) is not something I want to have to do because some people can't develop thicker skins on the internet.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] WyIdfyre I don't think the obvious alt population helps either.[/quote]That's true. But seems that alts posting threads that are against as many rules as possible is the highest form of hilarity for some people.

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  • The Flood is a harmonious place! You'll learn to like it, once you stop hiding in Sapphire ;)

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid The thing is, if that were the case, wouldn't he just...not post here? Wouldn't he, as people here have so happily suggested, just go back to his group where he makes the rules, can kick whoever he likes, and doesn't have to deal with this kind of crap? What motive could he honestly have other than a desire to improve the community with his input - which is the stated motive of everyone else who posts threads on the Septagon? Harlow has a utopia into which he can retreat any time he likes, guys. He doesn't [i]have[/i] to get things his way out here. He made the thread because he wanted to have an honest dialogue. Shame most of you can't grow up and engage on his level, really. Sad times.[/quote] The problem is that most members don't consider their involvement here serious enough to think change is needed. Bungie's main forums are a gathering place for those who don't think much of their posts, so hostility, ignorance, and everything else that is easy to succumb to comes out more easily. It's not a matter of "growing up" as much as it is starting to care. Maybe they go hand in hand, but "engaging on his level" is not something most people care to do. [i]That[/i] is unchangeable by any form of moderation.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyT [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Because it sounds an awful lot like Harlow can't get his way and is desperately trying to seize the moral high ground. There is nothing wrong with the Bnet community as it is. My only suggestion would be appoint a mod with a European timezone.[/quote]Why is it when his name appears people go about insulting Saphire? Just a quick question, because I've always wondered.[/quote] While I by no means support it, it is kind of like asking "why are Obama and the USA always connected" or "man I wish we could chat about Stalin without mentioning the USSR".

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  • I've just gone through Jay's 'why post in the mains' thread and frankly it's left a bad taste in my mouth. Jay and Harlow haven't left a good impression on me at all. They come down as elitist, arrogant and attempting to seize the moral high ground by singling themselves out from other community members who, in actual fact, are a whole lot better than they are.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid Sad times.[/quote] The only sad thing is that you mope around in a thread containing a whole multitude of great, mostly intelligent responses and yet have not admitted that the OP's post is flawed, and all you have done is blindly defend him and sulk. If you want honest, decent responses, reply to them and stop caring so much about the blatantly obvious troll posts. Maybe then people will stop accusing you of a) Merely echoing Harlows opinion rather than giving your own balanced argument and b) being a drama queen who feeds off of attention. Just a thought.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazyT [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Because it sounds an awful lot like Harlow can't get his way and is desperately trying to seize the moral high ground. There is nothing wrong with the Bnet community as it is. My only suggestion would be appoint a mod with a European timezone.[/quote]Why is it when his name appears people go about insulting Saphire? Just a quick question, because I've always wondered.[/quote]I have nothing against Sapphire, I rarely use the group. What I hate is people being arrogant and actually expecting something to change because they've decided something isn't quite right for them.

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid Except that oftentimes, they don't - either because they can't be bothered, or because the rule-breaking posts target someone they dislike. Today, there were a bunch of posts poking fun at Wyldfyre over her gender. Now, is Wyld my favourite member? Nope. But is the constant and blatant transphobia that comes up [i]every single time she posts in a thread[/i] fair or warranted? Of course not. But who (other than me and Harlow and maybe a couple of particularly LGBT-aware members) is going to report that type of thing? Group opinion is: LOL TRAPS ARE FUNNY HAHAHAHAHAHA WYLD THINKS HE'S A GIRL LOLOLOL (which is obviously a disgusting attitude, do I even need to clarify that?). So it doesn't get reported, despite the fact that those posts break the rules. And if enough people don't report them, they don't show up in the report queue - a single report won't do anything. Hell, in this very thread, there are people claiming that Harlow wrote this because he's mad that people think I'm ugly. How is that relevant to the topic of discussion? How is that anything other than derailment and flaming? Answer me that, and maybe I'll concede that there isn't a problem.[/quote]You realize that moderators do read their PM's right? You're allowed to PM them if you see something that needs to go and that isn't being taken care of. People have been trying to get users to report more for years, and nothing works. The people who you are calling flamers are the ones pointing out that Harlow is part of the problem that he is describing. Isn't discussing what the problems are what we're supposed to be doing? What have you been contributing to the discussion? The most I've seen you do previous to this post is start baby witch hunts against users posting in this thread by trying to "root out the flamers". You've offered nothing in the way of a solution or anything productive. If you want the best response to this thread, see Elite Mouse's post on page four. If you want a simpler response: "The Flood has not gotten worse, if anything it's a lot milder than it was in '09 and '10. Many, many, many people have said the same thing as Harlow over the years and obviously nothing has changed." calm your clams [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jaythenerdkid Shame most of you can't grow up and engage on his level, really. Sad times.[/quote]Seriously, get off your high horse. Everyone you're criticizing are the realists who know nothing is going to change because we've witnessed these threads before and we know nothing will change in way of report usage or language usage in the Flood. [Edited on 01.02.2013 4:17 AM PST]

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  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DarkBen64 Because it sounds an awful lot like Harlow can't get his way and is desperately trying to seize the moral high ground. There is nothing wrong with the Bnet community as it is. My only suggestion would be appoint a mod with a European timezone.[/quote]Why is it when his name appears people go about insulting Saphire? Just a quick question, because I've always wondered.

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