[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo So 343i and Karen Traviss just basically took a giant dump on the hopeful and idealistic ending of Halo 3. Not cool, not cool.[/quote] I didn't realize this community wanted a Disney ending. I'd have expected a longing for a more mature, realistic conclusion than 30 years of bitter hatred being overcome through [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship]The Power of Friendship,[/url] especially since it was overwhelmingly obvious Halo 3 wasn't the end. Dissappointing, to say the least.[/quote] Who ever said anything a "Disney" ending where everything is all sunshine, happiness, puppies, butterflies, and rainbows? I don't think anyone ever did. The Elites and humanity forming an alliance with the other, which is what Bungie was doing and was the whole -blam!- behind Halo 3's ending with the memorial and one of the main points of the game and all of the lore between it and Halo 2 and coming out after them. It was not going to be an easy or instant road on human's part, but that was what Bungie meant to happen, alliance and a close friendship between the two like what Great Britain and the other common-wealth countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) and America have with each other. How is the author's intent at all disappointing, claiming it is is just stupid. No one has ever said anything about it being instant, so don't act like they have or that humans should instantly be friends with every single Elite. And you know what, you can have a working alliance and treaty with another group, race, species, or nation without really liking them too much, the only important thing is if the leaders can put aside their differences and try to work together...which the UNSC obviously could, or at least the important people who actually matter, like Lord Hood.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo So 343i and Karen Traviss just basically took a giant dump on the hopeful and idealistic ending of Halo 3. Not cool, not cool.[/quote] I didn't realize this community wanted a Disney ending. I'd have expected a longing for a more mature, realistic conclusion than 30 years of bitter hatred being overcome through [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship]The Power of Friendship,[/url] especially since it was overwhelmingly obvious Halo 3 wasn't the end. Dissappointing, to say the least.[/quote] Who ever said anything a "Disney" ending where everything is all sunshine, happiness, puppies, butterflies, and rainbows? I don't think anyone ever did. The Elites and humanity forming an alliance with the other, which is what Bungie was doing and was the whole -blam!- behind Halo 3's ending with the memorial and one of the main points of the game and all of the lore between it and Halo 2 and coming out after them. It was not going to be an easy or instant road on human's part, but that was what Bungie meant to happen, alliance and a close friendship between the two like what Great Britain and the other common-wealth countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) and America have with each other. How is the author's intent at all disappointing, claiming it is is just stupid. No one has ever said anything about it being instant, so don't act like they have or that humans should instantly be friends with every single Elite. And you know what, you can have a working alliance and treaty with another group, race, species, or nation without really liking them too much, the only important thing is if the leaders can put aside their differences and try to work together...which the UNSC obviously could, or at least the important people who actually matter, like Lord Hood.[/quote] Yeah, I know that's what you're talking about. An idealogogical ending to a series that is supposed to be more realistic than that. It's a watered down Disney ending, but still very much like one because it throws out realism for hope and ideaology. And I'm pretty sure we all know that Halo 3 was not, couldn't have been, Bungie's intended ending to anything. Even if the government wants to make peace with the Elites (which they still do), and the Elites officially return the favor (which they still do), you cannot account for the individuals of either side. Unfortunately, the Elites are run by individual Keeps, not one government like we are. Maintaining the peace with all of those Keeps is impossible--the Arbiter is just one Keep, and not very respected amongst the religious zealots, aka the most likely to still want our heads. So what do you want ONI to do? Sit there with its thumb up its ass letting these overzealous Elites gain power, kill the Arbiter, take over, and wage Round 2 on us? Even the Arbiter can't be entirely trusted. He only joined us out of shear desperation. That's all the alliance ever was: shear desperation. It wasn't because of some superior moral high ground or whatever, however Bungie depicted it, the two sides still hated being in the same room with each other; hell, Rtas even threatened to glass all of earth soley on the basis of a localized Flood infection. You really think these are the signs of a potentially prosperous relationship? It is abundantly clear Rtas just wanted to see earth burn. Even Hood openly tells him to his face that he does not trust the Speratists, and he's the peace delegation. Why should ONI, our own equivelant overzealous protector that has been waging war with these genocidal, can't-be-reasoned-with maniacs for 30 years, trust Arbiter any more? Their allince, again, was out of desperation--the peace talks in Kilo-Five are also, in big part, out of necessity, because conventional soldiers must make peace when conventional wars are currently impossible. ONI is not a conventional branch of the military. We, as the audience, might know that Arbiter is more virtuous than the other Elites, but A) ONI doesn't know this, and B) even if they did, he is just one guy. I look at it as ONI would have no problem with peace with the Elites, if they were all, or mostly, like Thel. They aren't, so Thel can't be trusted because his people can't be, not even those of Vadam. ONI has nothing against Thel personally, he's a target out of necessity. So what you're hoping for, putting aside their differences to work together, is tantamount to a Disney ending, or at the very least a fantasy ending, because it's borderline impossible. There is a silver lining in that neither Hood nor Thel knows about ONI's operations, so in the long run, peace can still be achieved, [i]maybe.[/i] But millions of hateful, down with earth Elites are going to have to die before that can happen.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh And I'm pretty sure we all know that Halo 3 was not, couldn't have been, Bungie's intended ending to anything.[/quote] With regards to this particular topic you might as well start explaining. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh So what do you want ONI to do? Sit there with its thumb up its ass letting these overzealous Elites gain power, kill the Arbiter, take over, and wage Round 2 on us?[/quote] That is sort of what they are doing anyway if you really think about it. They are only doing it because they have the Infinity plot device, and instantaneous and complete knowledge of the entirety of Covenant space and its current state, and a degree of foresight that is impossible. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh Even the Arbiter can't be entirely trusted. He only joined us out of shear desperation.[/quote] Thel has a personal connection to Humanity through John. So you think it would be perfectly reasonably, and not out of character, for him to betray Humanity and that relationship he has with John? He argued for Rtas to spare Earth on ... what basis again? Oh yes, so that the Elites could gain the UNSC's "help". Will you just argue for literally anything at all now? Literally anything, regardless of how nonsensical it is? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh That's all the alliance ever was: shear desperation. It wasn't because of some superior moral high ground or whatever, however Bungie depicted it, the two sides still hated being in the same room with each other; hell, Rtas even threatened to glass all of earth soley on the basis of a localized Flood infection. You really think these are the signs of a potentially prosperous relationship? It is abundantly clear Rtas just wanted to see earth burn.[/quote] You're just saying that now in hindsight because it fits with what you want the canon to be moulded into in order to facilitate all this. Hood questioned the necessity of his glassing of Vio and implied that Rtas was untrustworthy and bloodthirsty because of it. Rtas, clearly agitated with such an accusation (Why?), then emphasizes the scale of the Flood threat thus underlying its necessity. He doesn't know if its a local infestation. What if the Cruiser had released infected dropships and fighters to other locations? What if the cruiser had orbited once in the upper atmosphere of the planet before finally crashing, spewing trillions of spores all over the planet? Rtas knows nothing of the situation upon arriving. All he should know at that point is that the Flood are on Earth; not necessarily that its a local infestation. So he states that a full glassing would have been preferable to contain it at point which makes sense given the lack of knowledge, but chose not to. If he wanted to see Earth burn just because it was Humanity's home world, plus he wanted to glass it to contain the Flood, then he would probably have just chosen that instead and no amount of persuasion from the Arbiter would have changed his mind. The fact that he was going to because of the Flood but chose not to thanks to Thel's guidance is his way of telling Hood to stick his accusation of untrustworthiness up his ass, because if that were his intention then it would have already happened. What sense would it make if Hood were to accuse Rtas of going overboard with the glassing, and then for Rtas to say that Hood is right, and that he just wants to glass Earth because it is Earth... wtf kind of sense does that make? They are trying to work out a deal here... not the opposite... On what grounds did he accept Thel's proposal? What can Humanity actually offer the Elites at this point? A single Spartan that is only really slightly better than the entirety of the Sangheili's soldiers, and laughably few and inferior star ships? Right, great help. I can't respect the notion that it was done purely out of necessity simply because the Elites did literally ALL of the work in space, and if you think about it, they really didn't need the UNSC's help on the ground either. The sum total of the UNSC's vital contributions was John pushing a button in the Control Room, which no one in that room at the time knew had to be done by a Human exclusively. Pay attention to the things Rtas says as Halo 3 goes on as well. He changes from the most anti-Human sentiment present in the game to somewhat more amiable by the end. If you are going to pick something as the definite proof to undermine that theme in the game then try not to pick one that actually reinforces it. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh So what you're hoping for, putting aside their differences to work together, is tantamount to a Disney ending, or at the very least a fantasy ending, because it's borderline impossible.[/quote] I love absolutes. They are almost always wrong.

It couldn't have spewed flood spores while it was orbit, BECAUSE IT CAME OUT OF -blam!- SLIPSPACE BEFORE IT CRASHED 6 SECONDS AFTERWARDS!!!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ferrrari It couldn't have spewed flood spores while it was orbit, BECAUSE IT CAME OUT OF -blam!- SLIPSPACE BEFORE IT CRASHED 6 SECONDS AFTERWARDS!!![/quote] What the hell is this -blam!-? Didn't you read the part right after that where I said that Rtas does not know anything about the situation upon arriving at Earth? Rtas wasn't at Earth when the damn ship crashed, so does not know what it did beforehand; he doesn't know that it crashed "6 seconds later".

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 On what grounds did he accept Thel's proposal? What can Humanity actually offer the Elites at this point?[/quote] - Cortana's solution; there's no guarantee that she'd give it to the Sangheili if humans weren't present, never mind John. - A home base in Earth. If the Sangheili left through the Portal without us, could they be sure we wouldn't close it behind them or set a trap for their return? - Honour. A common enemy was shared, a noble goal the Sangheili could respect. They must have felt shame at being duped by the Covenant for so long; no doubt they wished to prove themselves again - to us, as well as themselves. - John. As one of only two known people to make contact with the Gravemind and survive, he's a valuable asset to the Sangheili - that's discounting his fighting skills, and the fear he'll strike into the Covenant loyalists. - 343's assistance; whilst he loses sight of this towards the end, Spark does value the lives of Reclaimers. In CEA's terminals, he orders the Covenant to cease hostile action upon us or he will retaliate. If the Sangheili simply glassed Earth and pissed off, I don't think Spark would react too kindly. I mean, I can see your point. But it's not as easy as R'tas deciding he doesn't want to play with us, and taking his toys home.

I'm with [b]anton1792[/b] on this one. It is as if Travis thought that throwing everyone in the gray zone would be [i]cooler[/i], that an intergalactic alliance based on understanding (that they actually learned something out of the war) would be lame, so it's all conflict, betrayal, deciet, cause that's, you know [i]dark, gritty, and realistic[/i]... No regard for exporing potentially prosperous and adventurous scenarios. Why not do both is what I ask, why not allow fan favourite characters like Hood, Thel, and Rtas to do their thing, let them behave as they've always done, then create a new bunch of characters that fans don't have any preconceptions of, and make them into the opposing force? Oh, yeah, cause she isn't [i]a fan of things... [/i] EDIT: Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever. [Edited on 10.07.2012 6:01 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka EDIT: Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote] I wish Halo Nation would provides links to the videos. OT: Look at what I started. Thanks for the support guys.

I finished reading it yesterday, so obvious spoilers below. Honestly, I prefer [i]Glasslands[/i]. [i]Thursday War[/i] wasn't bad, but it just didn't tickle my fancy like it's predecessor did. I was really geared up for everything Venezia, and the author didn't deliver at all on that. Forze and Raia's story arc was a damn chore to read; it was dragged out far too long and got stale rather quickly. I realized about half way through Phillips' time on Sangheilios that the entire book was going to be a long-winded setup for Halo 4. Introduce Infinity, Del Rio, Lasky, etc. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Covenant faction in Requiem in H4 is lead by our buddy Jul. (I'm calling it: you heard it here.) Granted, I should have seen it coming, but damn. [Edited on 10.07.2012 6:59 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote]What's your point? [i]Believe[/i] was made non-canon as soon as Halo 3 released.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog - Cortana's solution; there's no guarantee that she'd give it to the Sangheili if humans weren't present, never mind John.[/quote] Maybe. The Covenant has went after UNSC AI's before, and the UNSC has went to very specific lengths to stop this from happening. I'm not sure if Huragok or whatever else the Covenant used to infiltrate our systems could hold a candle to Cortana, but evidently the Covenant don't see very much need for Human co-operation in the act of getting information out of an AI. I'm not sure why they would alter that approach now. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog - A home base in Earth. If the Sangheili left through the Portal without us, could they be sure we wouldn't close it behind them or set a trap for their return?[/quote] A problem solved by not leaving any Humans left alive on Earth, to set a trap or close it behind them, in the first place. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog - Honour. A common enemy was shared, a noble goal the Sangheili could respect. They must have felt shame at being duped by the Covenant for so long; no doubt they wished to prove themselves again - to us, as well as themselves.[/quote] Well aye I agree, but that goes beyond the simple necessity of survival doesn't it? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog - John. As one of only two known people to make contact with the Gravemind and survive, he's a valuable asset to the Sangheili - that's discounting his fighting skills, and the fear he'll strike into the Covenant loyalists. - 343's assistance; whilst he loses sight of this towards the end, Spark does value the lives of Reclaimers. In CEA's terminals, he orders the Covenant to cease hostile action upon us or he will retaliate. If the Sangheili simply glassed Earth and pissed off, I don't think Spark would react too kindly.[/quote] These two are really the only incentives that I can see for them to create some sort of co-operation based on necessity only, however they don't seem like game-changers; well at least John doesn't seem like it. Thel is a fair match for John in terms of his knowledge about the Gravemind from the same encounter, and in fighting ability. He lacks the psychological impact though, so there's that. However I don't think this is likely to be something that you would call for a co-operation, and inevitably a cessation to hostilities, over if they so thoroughly and irrevocably despised Humans, and just wanted to watch Earth burn. If the necessity of survival is the only way to co-operate then I don't see that being a consideration. As for Spark, glassing Earth to stop the Flood is nothing compared to activating a Halo to stop an as-of-yet contained Flood outbreak on Alpha Halo. He was willing to sacrifice all Reclaimers over that. Also, all that time when Rtas was travelling to Earth, and then when he arrived, planning to glass the whole lot to get rid of the Flood, Spark never said anything about sparing Earth on the grounds of Humans being Reclaimers. Only when Rtas got to speak with Thel did he decide not to but up until that point Spark had never said anything. I mean he couldn't have for the fact that the issue of the Elites finding this out was never brought up. And if he did* then I'm not sure the nature of the alliance remains the same from the Elite's perspective any more. Necessity (whatever is going for it) wouldn't be the only consideration for not glassing the -blam!- outta Earth if they found that out. It just seems to me that 343i (I suspect Frankie O'Conner) are trying to undermine that part of the story to the point where logic itself breaks down. I can't see it being based on pure necessity any more than 2+2=5. This is without going into the stuff that points towards an emotional/moral justification either. (* Some Elites in the game called you Reclaimer when you trade weapons and stuff with them. It doesn't make sense to me that such a massive revelation would not be given a major spotlight.)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka I'm with [b]anton1792[/b] on this one. It is as if Travis thought that throwing everyone in the gray zone would be [i]cooler[/i], that an intergalactic alliance based on understanding (that they actually learned something out of the war) would be lame, so it's all conflict, betrayal, deciet, cause that's, you know [i]dark, gritty, and realistic[/i]... No regard for exporing potentially prosperous and adventurous scenarios. Why not do both is what I ask, why not allow fan favourite characters like Hood, Thel, and Rtas to do their thing, let them behave as they've always done, then create a new bunch of characters that fans don't have any preconceptions of, and make them into the opposing force? Oh, yeah, cause she isn't [i]a fan of things... [/i] EDIT: Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote] I agree with this post. Making everything morally grey does not make an interesting story by that virtue alone. I am not expecting a post Halo 3 universe filled with sunshine and flowers with the elites and humans being best friends forever. What I was expecting was an evolvement of their relationship. Say what you will about Halo 3, it ended with a positive note on humanity's relation with the elites. I was expecting a continuation of that, with them working together towards a brighter future. I was not expecting a great big group of the elites to return to their old faith even after it was proven false and the prophets tried to have them massacred. Why is it that ONI feels the need to fuel rebellion with their weapon shipments to Telcam? Why not take out Telcam and use his attempts at rabble rousing as proof that the elites need humanity? I always found it strange that Hood, Thel, and Rtas are such big characters in the games but have next to no presence in the EU. I can't think of a single story Thel or Hood has appeared in as a central character and all Rtas got was that single story in the graphic novel. These characters are available for all sorts of stories but they are extremely underused outside of the campaign. [Edited on 10.07.2012 7:22 PM PDT]

Finally finished the book. Well, now we know how the "Storm" Covenant faction got started.

I'll be ordering it today, I've read every other Halo book. Excited because its a direct sequel to glass lands.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primo84 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote]What's your point? [i]Believe[/i] was made non-canon as soon as Halo 3 released. [/quote]Oh really? I've completely missed that. Would you mind pointing me towards a source, I would very much want to know the reason for it?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primo84 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote]What's your point? [i]Believe[/i] was made non-canon as soon as Halo 3 released. [/quote]Oh really? I've completely missed that. Would you mind pointing me towards a source, I would very much want to know the reason for it?[/quote] All you need do is play Halo 3. All the events in the Believe ad-campaign never transpired considering how the battle depicted there never occurred in the game. Of course one could argue that the museum is just one giant tool of propaganda to ham up the events surrounding the final battle of Earth, but given how a lot of details (such as the dates the veterans served in the UNSC where many of them served started serving after 2552) here and there were incorrect that theory is rather doubtful. The Believe campaign is ultimately just ad material meant to dramatize things for the masses, not accurately represent the actual product.

I thought it was widely known that the Believe ads, museum, and story around the "final battle" was ONI propaganda. Anyone else remember the story about that war photographer or something that ties in with it?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NebuchadnezzaRT I thought it was widely known that the Believe ads, museum, and story around the "final battle" was ONI propaganda. Anyone else remember the story about that war photographer or something that ties in with it?[/quote]Link?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] StealthSlasher2 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primo84 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote]What's your point? [i]Believe[/i] was made non-canon as soon as Halo 3 released. [/quote]Oh really? I've completely missed that. Would you mind pointing me towards a source, I would very much want to know the reason for it?[/quote] All you need do is play Halo 3. All the events in the Believe ad-campaign never transpired considering how the battle depicted there never occurred in the game.[/quote]Ah, I suspected as much; no officail decanonisation. I think there's too much assumption going on here on the forum. [b]So I'm goint to the bottom of this![/b] What can we actually deduce from the ad campaign? Well, [i]Believe[/i] consists of: [quote]a diorama:[/quote] Is a monumemt to commemorate the survival of a species, "our species", or "more importantly, it commemorates the man who gave the world faith", who made "mankind [i]believe[/i] again". [quote]Several accounts of characters involved in the conflict:[/quote]Sadly the Halo 3 web site featuring this seems to be offline, so I'll have to rely of Halopedia for this. I read it all as thouroughly as possible and can not find anything that would compromise its validity. If anything it tells us that the [u]ONI hardly knew what was happening in the heart of the action[/u], since they're still investigating and cross-referencing.[quote]Five short movies:[/quote][b]Museum:[/b] In an interview with Maj. Powel Czernek (active 2551-81) he tells us--among other situational descriptions--that he was with the Master Chief when he [i]"armed his grenade"[/i]. Does this mean the plasma grenade Chief armed in the end of the diorama fly-cam? [b]Hunted:[/b] This short tells the story of an old marine that recounts his memories of having waited in the dark for the Master Chief during the war. No point in this being ONI propaganda; nothing that contradicts what happened in the game. Nothing that contradicts canon. [b]Enemy Weapon: [/b]This takes place in the [i]Museum of Humanity[/i] in the [i]Weapons Hall[/i]. A Maj. Ronald Hufman (UNSC active duty 2548-2573) and a Stg. Tomas Navarro (UNSC 2555-67) are being interviewed. Here we find one oddity: the war had already ended at 2553, yet the Stg. tells us that he "used the shotgun". This is questionable. The rest however match. Btw, why is the Spiker still operational?! D: [b]Gravesite:[/b] "For the first time in 43 years" Lt. Naraj Shah (active 48-73) returns to John 117's memorial site. The surrounding field if full of remenants of the war. The Lt. tells us why Spartans [i]don't die[/i] (editors note: if this was ONI propaganda, they would they openly admit such a thing?). Nothing that breaks canon here. [b]The Making of the John 117 Monument:[/b] This is the most important one if you ask me, cause it tells us three things: The diorama is actually made within the Halo universe, it is made in the year 2607-10, and it commemorates peace. The last thing I listed above is why I brought the ad campaign up from the begining; it clearly states that the was is over.[quote][/quote] So, what exactly is it that brands this as ONI propaganda when it is as close to the truth as the game itself is? (and Landfall for that matter). The most important question we have to ask is: what happened to John? Judging from the ad campaign, nothing, nobody tells us that they saw him die. The monument has him held up by a Brute as if defeated even though he fought to the end. This must be a romanticized version of what the survivors thought had happen since he was nowhere to be found. The only one who knew was Thel, and he left.. well, I have no idea exactly how long he actually stayed.. They left for 00 sometime between october and november 2552, and the 117 memorial was raised on the third of march 2553, which is when we see the Shadow of Intent leave for Sanglihel-- Travis novels. [b]The only thing that isn't covered[/b], is what the marines who [i]journeyed into the howling dark[/i] and actually [b]did[/b] return had to say about the situation. Did they sign a NDA? ... [b]Conclusion[/b]: I would not say that there are enough [i]incorrect[/i] details "such as the dates the veterans served in the UNSC" in order for anyone to believe the [i]Believe[/i] is not worthy of its canonicity. It is a bit flawed, yes, but nothing that inherently breaks it. Nor is its theme indicative of being ONI propaganda, the only logical assumption--if assumptions are to be made--is that it depicts what the soldiers that survived the war ar able to recall and what they [i]believed[/i] had happened in the midst of chaos. The reason I brought it up is simple because I don't see how there could be a grand conflict between the UNSC and the Elites, when Earth is at peace fifty something years later. (But that scenario doesn't warrent for any exciting sequels...) If there indeed was a conflict it wasn't large enough to mention (apparently). Or it is completely covert, concerning only the ONI ([u]which is probably what it is, so I don't know why I even brought this up.. Sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll post on topic from now on...[/u]) As an Old Testament follower of Halo, Humanity is at peace after 2553 (roughly). But please, do tell me if I've missed something important! :D[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NebuchadnezzaRT I thought it was widely known that the Believe ads, museum, and story around the "final battle" was ONI propaganda. Anyone else remember the story about that war photographer or something that ties in with it?[/quote]Do you mean the ONI agent from Second Sunrise Over New Mombasa? Cause that was when the Covenant found Earth. [Edited on 10.08.2012 2:57 PM PDT]

I don't know what you're talking about. I read Glasslands and didn't like it at all. The Thursday War is a huge improvment.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] StealthSlasher2 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primo84 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Also, it is as if the [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Diorama]Halo 3 Diorama[/url] is completely forgotten; not taken into consideration whatsoever.[/quote]What's your point? [i]Believe[/i] was made non-canon as soon as Halo 3 released. [/quote]Oh really? I've completely missed that. Would you mind pointing me towards a source, I would very much want to know the reason for it?[/quote] All you need do is play Halo 3. All the events in the Believe ad-campaign never transpired considering how the battle depicted there never occurred in the game.[/quote]Ah, I suspected as much; no officail decanonisation. I think there's too much assumption going on here on the forum. [b]So I'm goint to the bottom of this![/b] What can we actually deduce from the ad campaign? Well, [i]Believe[/i] consists of: [quote]a diorama:[/quote] Is a monumemt to commemorate the survival of a species, "our species", or "more importantly, it commemorates the man who gave the world faith", who made "mankind [i]believe[/i] again". [quote]Several accounts of characters involved in the conflict:[/quote]Sadly the Halo 3 web site featuring this seems to be offline, so I'll have to rely of Halopedia for this. I read it all as thouroughly as possible and can not find anything that would compromise its validity. If anything it tells us that the [u]ONI hardly knew what was happening in the heart of the action[/u], since they're still investigating and cross-referencing.[quote]Five short movies:[/quote][b]Museum:[/b] In an interview with Maj. Powel Czernek (active 2551-81) he tells us--among other situational descriptions--that he was with the Master Chief when he [i]"armed his grenade"[/i]. Does this mean the plasma grenade Chief armed in the end of the diorama fly-cam? [b]Hunted:[/b] This short tells the story of an old marine that recounts his memories of having waited in the dark for the Master Chief during the war. No point in this being ONI propaganda; nothing that contradicts what happened in the game. Nothing that contradicts canon. [b]Enemy Weapon: [/b]This takes place in the [i]Museum of Humanity[/i] in the [i]Weapons Hall[/i]. A Maj. Ronald Hufman (UNSC active duty 2548-2573) and a Stg. Tomas Navarro (UNSC 2555-67) are being interviewed. Here we find one oddity: the war had already ended at 2553, yet the Stg. tells us that he "used the shotgun". This is questionable. The rest however match. Btw, why is the Spiker still operational?! D: [b]Gravesite:[/b] "For the first time in 43 years" Lt. Naraj Shah (active 48-73) returns to John 117's memorial site. The surrounding field if full of remenants of the war. The Lt. tells us why Spartans [i]don't die[/i] (editors note: if this was ONI propaganda, they would they openly admit such a thing?). Nothing that breaks canon here. [b]The Making of the John 117 Monument:[/b] This is the most important one if you ask me, cause it tells us three things: The diorama is actually made within the Halo universe, it is made in the year 2607-10, and it commemorates peace. The last thing I listed above is why I brought the ad campaign up from the begining; it clearly states that the was is over.[quote][/quote] So, what exactly is it that brands this as ONI propaganda when it is as close to the truth as the game itself is? (and Landfall for that matter). The most important question we have to ask is: what happened to John? Judging from the ad campaign, nothing, nobody tells us that they saw him die. The monument has him held up by a Brute as if defeated even though he fought to the end. This must be a romanticized version of what the survivors thought had happen since he was nowhere to be found. The only one who knew was Thel, and he left.. well, I have no idea exactly how long he actually stayed.. They left for 00 sometime between october and november 2552, and the 117 memorial was raised on the third of march 2553, which is when we see the Shadow of Intent leave for Sanglihel-- Travis novels. [b]The only thing that isn't covered[/b], is what the marines who [i]journeyed into the howling dark[/i] and actually [b]did[/b] return had to say about the situation. Did they sign a NDA? ... [b]Conclusion[/b]: I would not say that there are enough [i]incorrect[/i] details "such as the dates the veterans served in the UNSC" in order for anyone to believe the [i]Believe[/i] is not worthy of its canonicity. It is a bit flawed, yes, but nothing that inherently breaks it. Nor is its theme indicative of being ONI propaganda, the only logical assumption--if assumptions are to be made--[b]is that it depicts what the soldiers that survived the war ar able to recall and what they [i]believed[/i] had happened in the midst of chaos.[/b] The reason I brought it up is simple because I don't see how there could be a grand conflict between the UNSC and the Elites, when Earth is at peace fifty something years later. (But that scenario doesn't warrent for any exciting sequels...) If there indeed was a conflict it wasn't large enough to mention (apparently). Or it is completely covert, concerning only the ONI ([u]which is probably what it is, so I don't know why I even brought this up.. Sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll post on topic from now on...[/u]) As an Old Testament follower of Halo, Humanity is at peace after 2553 (roughly). But please, do tell me if I've missed something important! :D[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NebuchadnezzaRT I thought it was widely known that the Believe ads, museum, and story around the "final battle" was ONI propaganda. Anyone else remember the story about that war photographer or something that ties in with it?[/quote]Do you mean the ONI agent from Second Sunrise Over New Mombasa? Cause that was when the Covenant found Earth.[/quote] So let me get this straight. You're going to debunk an assumption...with another assumption? Here's the thing...The 117 Monument documentary is what breaks your personal theory of the Believe campaign (or more specifically the diorama itself) being canon based solely on what (you seem to be implying are senile) soldiers can recall. Within it the narrator describes the painstaking work that went into ensuring the accuracy of the battlefield going so far as to pull the records of the UNSC soldiers who participated in the battle as well as recovering records of the topographical data of the exact area where the depicted battle took place and where people, both Covenant and Humans, stood or fell during the pivotal moment the Chief turned the tide. At the time the diorama site was set up online there were many other notes left on the diorama of soldier testimonies that didn't line up with canon such as a soldier dying at a certain spot, but being notable as a veteran of the Alpha Halo conflict despite Johnson being the only marine survivor of the conflict among others. There was quite a stir over many other details (such as all Chieftains wielding Fists of Rukt left and right and the fact all other Brutes were stalker class) in the forums back in the day. Therein lies the problem. There is no setting featured in any of the Halo games that matches the diorama. Furthermore, keep in mind that this is Halo 3. That's the key. This was back when there was a more clear cut manner in which to determine what was canon and what wasn't. Staten laid down the rules clearly that ad material was at the lowest tier as to what was considered canon. If a game were to show something that contradicted something shown in an ad then the game's canon overwrote what was depicted in an ad. Ergo, the event depicted in the diorama was not considered canon.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OdorousLicense3 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo So 343i and Karen Traviss just basically took a giant dump on the hopeful and idealistic ending of Halo 3. Not cool, not cool.[/quote]This I don't consider anything written by Traviss to be canon.[/quote] I haven't considered the past 5 or so years of Halo to be canon, but it doesn't work like that does it?

This will be the first Halo novel I won't buy. After Glasslands...just....goddammit, Karen Traviss.

I have been mulling it over and what bothers me the most isn't the retconning or Halsey hating. What I am truly disappointed in about the book is that there is little or no action.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] StealthSlasher2 So let me get this straight. You're going to debunk an assumption...with another assumption?[/quote]If you read instead of skim, you'll understand the meaning of "if assumptions are to be made". In this case they aren't, cause I never said they should. I based my conclusion on the evidence I found. [quote]Here's the thing...The 117 Monument documentary is what breaks your personal theory of the Believe campaign (or more specifically the diorama itself) being canon based solely on what (you seem to be implying are senile) soldiers can recall. Within it the narrator describes the painstaking work that went into ensuring the accuracy of the battlefield going so far as to pull the records of the UNSC soldiers who participated in the battle as well as recovering records of the topographical data of the exact area where the depicted battle took place and where people, both Covenant and Humans, stood or fell during the pivotal moment the Chief turned the tide. [/quote]That is not what the narrator said. What he did say was that the topography, buildings, soldiers, Covenant, vehicles, etc, were created as accurate as possible. He did not say that the diorama depicted an actual situation; that the records--for example--showed that a marine was dragged away from this particular point by a Jackal, and a Hunter did this and that exactly here. They based the diorama on anecdotes which parallels would have been evident if you actually had watched the fly-through and read and watched the interviews. Drawing that conclusion, seeing the similarities between what the marines recalled and what was shown, is as much of an assumption that is acceptable to make, but even so, I won't rely on it. What I do rely on is that out of the information provided, nothing was significant enough to change the plot/story. I repeat: "ONI hardly knew what was happening in the heart of the action, since they're still investigating and cross-referencing." and may I add: fifty years after the event (still!). [quote]At the time the diorama site was set up online there were many other notes left on the diorama of soldier testimonies that didn't line up with canon such as a soldier dying at a certain spot, but being notable as a veteran of the Alpha Halo conflict despite Johnson being the only marine survivor of the conflict among others.[/quote] You might be correct on this, but since you don't provide any evidence of it, I will have to disregard this part. I've done my best to find every piece of the ad campaign and go though all information I could find as thoroughly as possible, but I have not seen such notes. [quote]There was quite a stir over many other details (such as all Chieftains wielding Fists of Rukt left and right and the fact all other Brutes were stalker class) in the forums back in the day.[/quote] You do realise that these are [i]production errors[/i] due to poor planing and bad communication? Is Halo 2 not canon cause ODST reimagined New Mombasa, is Landfall not canon cause Halo 3 took place during the night, is Cryptum not canon cause there only is place for seven holographic representations of the installations in the control room of the Ark, are none of the games canon just cause none of them represent the what effects of a plasma pistol are canonically? I can go on.. On top of that, none of the diorama discrepancies chance the meaning of the diorama, nor do they alter the plot. I despise redesigning, but I would go as far as to say that it breaks canon. Every Brute being of the Stalker class is the equivalent of a type-o, a bug, a misunderstanding, it doesn't break canon, probably due to some sort of limitation. [quote]Therein lies the problem. There is no setting featured in any of the Halo games that matches the diorama.[/quote]It is the exact same terain as the one on Tsavo Highway. There are even parts of the fallen space tether there (although in another scale). It is the same landscape as Landfall and High Grounds too, they just looks a bit different cause they're different media, the diorama is made out of, you know, plastic and cardboard or whatever.[quote]Furthermore, keep in mind that this is Halo 3. That's the key. This was back when there was a more clear cut manner in which to determine what was canon and what wasn't. Staten laid down the rules clearly that ad material was at the lowest tier as to what was considered canon. If a game were to show something that contradicted something shown in an ad then the game's canon overwrote what was depicted in an ad. Ergo, the event depicted in the diorama was not considered canon.[/quote]You have yet to provide evidence of something that directly states that it isn't canon. Details are details, there are tons of them that differ throughout the various work. And I doubt Staten or Bungie would discard an entire piece of work, they'd more likely adress certain individual flaws and change them (but that's just me speculating, so it's irrelevant). [quote][/quote]Again, sorry for the thread hijack..

High Charity and the Portal business still bears thoughts: there was absolutely 0 explanation given or documentation/anything how a 300km long Flood spewing vessel managed to head into the Portal while leaving Earth untouched. While the factions forming, the war etc in Thursday is understandable given Hood's final dialogue in Halo 3, ONI's absolutely retarded actions, are not. Firstly, you commit to peace, and then you start planetary bombardment of the species that saved you in the first place? Make infected crops just for the LOLz? Think about a colony on Sanghelios? I can even understand wanting the Elites to be under a civil war but ONI went full retard in the Thursday War.