Do not revive threads.

As far as I'm concerened (as well as all of my friends who play halo) the game halo reach is not canon but the fall of reach is. The reasons are that Jorge never existed in the Sparton II list and the rest of noble team are Sparton III's who are not suposed to ware MJOLNIR armour. Also if you read the books the story actually flows better into Halo 1 than Halo Reach!

[url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory]Or maybe Travis likes biscuits. [/url]

The cookie/biscuit may actually represent Maggie's flawed nature and the same goes for Osman.

I just wanted to add one point, even though I agree with you almost completely, the covenant could have easily had wiped out the spaces forces above reach if you consider that it was the largest covenant force the UNSC has seen up to that point and we also have to consider the technology the UNSC and the Covenant had at the time. Lets think of this step by step, covenant force spontaneously slips in and the UNSC is suddenly under attack. The space battle above reach would have to first mobilize while the SMAC or MAC stations are potentially unguarded considering the Covenant already have scouted ahead of time, because we don't know the lengths the covenant has gone to take reach, leaving little room to actually moblize the entire space force. Already at a disadvantage of the surprise space battle the covenant probably were sending their invading forces towards the planet while the covenant forces setup a defensive position outside orbit. And lets not add that covenant can most likely scan the planet for any forerunner signal and immediately bomb it from orbit. The Covenant were superior in space combat, its one of the main reason the UNSC was losing. I believe the cole protcol expressed how bad the UNSC was at space fights the best, but it does leave some debate about how much was exaggerated in that story was. Considering ground battles I would like to say the Covenant sent troops to search for forerunner tech which eventually lead to the glassing of the planet so in reguards with Reach I would have to say that maybe they went to key military bases that they could find in orbit then glassing the planet, not necessarily destroying everything. When it comes down to glassing the planet I think the covenant actually made the planet inhabitable not completely glassing it. I read and posted before that it would take 17-27 years to glass the entire planet of reach which correct me if I'm wrong they did but not completely since that would be a waste of time. Now is Halo Reach or is The Fall of Reach more canon? I don't know. What I do know is that this halo story bible how can we be soo sure that it actually exists or even if it does, how can we be so sure that it lists EVERYTHING the halo universe has. This bible, this halo bible, what if it just lists the history from precursor to forerunner and bungie is just making it as it goes. I don't know, but it keeps me up at night. (Post note: excuse all my spelling. I was just trying to add some spins and my own thoughts. Thanks.)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 You do know that the dropships carry vehicles right? Not to mention 9,000 troops [b]rushing[/b] an area that isn't prepared will be more than enough to overrun it which is what happened. The amount of troops doesn't matter since it was clearly established in The Fall of Reach/Fist Strike that they were not prepared for the attack. How would the dropships be whittled down when they didn't even know [b]exactly[/b] where they were going? It wouldn't take them "hours" to get to their destinations since it was brought up that the dropships go mach 3-5 (i forgot where maybe a pedia or novel). You can't say "always" and then say 9 out of 10. The UNSC was not prepared to be overwhelmed hence why they were. 314 ships is more than enough to take out 150 UNSC ships since that is more than the 3:1 ratio. The SMACs are a flawed concept because the UNSC never has enough ships to protect them. Which is why the covenant could just rush them or send out hundreds of dropships (they did both) to take them out. You would need to have enough SMACs to cover the entire planet and then have a sizable fleet to protect them for the defense to be "absolute". Even then once a number of ships go down a SMAc will be left unguarded,destroyed, which will leave a breach in the perimeter and the defense will fail. You can't count each SMAC as "3 ships" because they have a range and if you are outside that range you can just avoid it. Which is what the sniper ship was doing when it took one (or a few) out. Which would leave another area uncovered even though the amount of SMACS at reach was pathetic and should be your arguing point. Majority of your points are "what ifs" and "it should have been" just because you don't see the way the battle went as correct doesn't mean it wasn't. I don't see the point of arguing it any way since the covenant could keep sending waves to attack the planet (which they did). meaning even if reach survived another wave it would have been overrun by the third one.[/quote] Even so, these are military bases (I'm sure I don't need to describe what that entails) that had at least an hour to get to full combat readiness (remember the Covenant were detected at like 5:30 AM or around then...they only weakened defenses enough to start heading down toward the planet at like 6:30 AM), and seeing as how the UNSC has been at war for 25+ years by that point and the Covenant could find any planet at any time, they were always on some semblance of full combat alert. It's never said [i]how[/i] many dropships there were, only hundreds, 999 is the max one can have with "hundreds" of dropships...and each Phantom/Spirit can carry about 15-30 troops at a time. Even if they did have the max amount of troops, they would be assaulting military bases that had time to prepare. You don't have to know where the dropships are going, it's not exactly something that can be hidden, they'd know where the dropships themselves are. Even at supersonic speeds, it still takes a while to get anywhere, it would not have taken about five minutes like it did in the book. I don't dispute that the three locations getting the brunt of the attack were running on borrowed time, but the fact that they were instantaneously overrun and overwhelmed in seconds is not portraying the UNSC realistically, even from an in universe standard. Except that they didn't have 314 ships because before the battle even really began the Fleet of Particular Justice lost [i][b]half[/b][/i] the fleet due to a barrage of fire from the UNSC fleet, the SMACs, and the fleet blundering into a minefield. The number of ships was roughly 150 useable military craft on both sides. Ships have a "range" too, though it's not really a range at all as the SMAC and MAC round keep going pretty much indefinitely until they run into something, but anyways, the strength of SMACs is equal all by itself to three UNSC ships when/if pitted against the Covenant. It's easier for a ship to be able to slip in through the "gaps", but that does not automatically equate to a loss, the other SMACs and/or UNSC ships can still fire into the open pathway on any ships attempting to get through, one or more going down doesn't mean they can waltz right in unharmed...it just makes it easier. The way that Nylund set up the battle in TFoR, the UNSC would be walking away with another Pyrrhic victory, Reach would still be lost whenever the next batch of Covenant showed up, but there would have been minimal (in comparison) loss of life and experimental technologies as the planet would have had time for massive evacuations.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by. [/quote] Just wait until TTW where she starts aligning herself with a Saint because she offers some bloke a ginger biscuit in the prologue. :P[/quote] God the description of her eating a damn cookie made me cringe. What is the point?[/quote] It's an analogy for her unwillingness to let any external culture taint her vision of the 'perfect' society, one she will forge. She won't refer to the 'biscuit' as a 'cookie' as so many around her will out of the her traditionalist values, the same way she won't allow the Sangheili to build a bond with humanity - she believes her opinions are the truth, and tries to impose them upon everyone else. That's how I'm viewing it anyway, because otherwise it really is just a ridiculous amount of page-time given to a biscuit.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by. [/quote] Just wait until TTW where she starts aligning herself with a Saint because she offers some bloke a ginger biscuit in the prologue. :P[/quote] God the description of her eating a damn cookie made me cringe. What is the point?[/quote] Had to stop myself from laughing. While I understand they're thematically different, TTW's opening is absolutely [i]tame[/i] in comparison to Ghosts of Onyx. A prologue is supposed to grab the reader's attention and set the scene, the bombing of Sanghelios would have been a much better opening scene for the book.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by. [/quote] Just wait until TTW where she starts aligning herself with a Saint because she offers some bloke a ginger biscuit in the prologue. :P[/quote] God the description of her eating a damn cookie made me cringe. What is the point?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by. [/quote] A few have said it(I say it a lot :P). I've turned the trend into ONI became Cerberus's retarded cousin(For at least one other person). But yeah. I mean, it's totally a good idea that can in no way backfire to supply the group most likely to attack humans with large numbers of weapons while also leeching most of the UNSC supplies for her own goals. (TTW I believe actually states she took HALF the entire UNSC fleet budget at that year for the Infinity.)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by. [/quote] Just wait until TTW where she starts aligning herself with a Saint because she offers some bloke a ginger biscuit in the prologue. :P

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...[/quote] Which member said that ONI went from a competent organization to a blatant rip off of Cerberus? Not even the Inquisition would do something that dumb. But hey, Maggie has been going off the rocker if Glasslands is anything to go by.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police A cloaking device wouldn't have prevented the UNSC and ONI from detecting the Supercarrier exiting slipspace either way.[/quote] I'm puzzled about this. Covenant camouflage generators produce vast arrays of heat, IIRC. A super carrier and the half-a-dozen or so corvettes around the rest of the planet would be firing signal flares at the surveillance outposts...[/quote] ONI did it. Surveillance/Communication outposts were either down (like WC) or ONI was keeping them in the dark. One of the data drops has a trooper commenting that someone must be having a celebration unaware that the lights he is seeing are actually from a battle. [/quote] Oh yeah, I remember that now. This whole plan of Maggie's is still downright bat-blam!- crazy...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police A cloaking device wouldn't have prevented the UNSC and ONI from detecting the Supercarrier exiting slipspace either way.[/quote] I'm puzzled about this. Covenant camouflage generators produce vast arrays of heat, IIRC. A super carrier and the half-a-dozen or so corvettes around the rest of the planet would be firing signal flares at the surveillance outposts...[/quote] ONI did it. Surveillance/Communication outposts were either down (like WC) or ONI was keeping them in the dark. One of the data drops has a trooper commenting that someone must be having a celebration unaware that the lights he is seeing are actually from a battle.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Habah Who gives a crap, It's a fictional story. Get over yourselves.[/quote] What an illuminating, productive response! Well done, dear. :)

Who gives a crap, It's a fictional story. Get over yourselves.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police A cloaking device wouldn't have prevented the UNSC and ONI from detecting the Supercarrier exiting slipspace either way.[/quote] I'm puzzled about this. Covenant camouflage generators produce vast arrays of heat, IIRC. A super carrier and the half-a-dozen or so corvettes around the rest of the planet would be firing signal flares at the surveillance outposts...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron A: Who says Carter frakking knows the situation of the fleet, being on the ground? Remember, the datapads had ONI basically funnel the ENTIRE fleet(pretty much) to the other side of the planet and kept in the dark about what was going on. The ground forces engaged there likewise could be in the dark about what's going on exactly in orbit. B: Again, ONI kept things in the dark.[/quote]Long Night of Solace has Carter state, all of our nukes are either out of system or went down with the ships that were carrying them. Makes no sense that they wouldn't have any Nuke's left still planetside, let alone the fact that Winter Contingency was declared on July 24, 2552 the entire UNSC fleet should have been at Reach by the time of Nightfall and Tip of The Spear. [quote]To second part, take it up with 343. They are the ones who said the Supercarrier had a cloaking device of some sort which allowed it to arrive and deploy forces without being detected. Also ties into the "ONI -blam!- had people clueless about what was going on."[/quote]343 Industries has to excuse it somehow, Bungie are the ones who wrote it. A cloaking device wouldn't have prevented the UNSC and ONI from detecting the Supercarrier exiting slipspace either way. [Edited on 09.23.2012 8:52 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog The ONI Datadrops mean that [i]Reach[/i] more or less fits in perfectly with [i]The Fall of Reach.[/i] It's all retroactive excuses, but done incredibly well.[/quote] Also turns Parangosky into basically a traitor without a lick of intelligence... but oh well... (By that, I mean the fact she willingly tossed Reach to the Covenant just to get a ship to capture.[/quote] Halsey was in on it too. It was sound strategy and would have worked if it hadn't been for the unwillingness of the Autumn's crew to follow orders and stay out of the battle. Though, if they'd kidnapped Regret, I highly doubt Truth would have traded him back for a piece of chewing gum.[/quote] Halsey was in on the "Capture Covie ship, then kidnap a prophet" Not the "We will DAMN Reach and everybody on the planet to do that." [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] The BS Police [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SubtleSpartan I don't get why everyone loves the FOR story so much. I thought that the bits during the spartan training were really good but the actual invasion of reach was poorly thought out. That the best defended UNSC world fell in a single day, whereas harvest was fought over for more than 5 years, is ridiculous. Also the covenant somehow knew the location of every military base and orbital platform power plant and using only a few thousand phantoms managed to destroy them all, despite supposedly all the spartan IIs being on the planet to defend them. Someone please explain the logic behind that.[/quote]Someone please explain the logic of the UNSC having all of their remaining nukes out of Reach's system and not recalling them ahead of time when they declared Winter Contingency? Let alone how did a freaking super carrier even get to Reach without the UNSC detecting it exiting slipspace when the UNSC has post's set up all over the system to monitor slipspace travel? [/quote] A: Who says Carter frakking knows the situation of the fleet, being on the ground? Remember, the datapads had ONI basically funnel the ENTIRE fleet(pretty much) to the other side of the planet and kept in the dark about what was going on. The ground forces engaged there likewise could be in the dark about what's going on exactly in orbit. B: Again, ONI kept things in the dark. To second part, take it up with 343. They are the ones who said the Supercarrier had a cloaking device of some sort which allowed it to arrive and deploy forces without being detected. Also ties into the "ONI -blam!- had people clueless about what was going on."

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SubtleSpartan I don't get why everyone loves the FOR story so much. I thought that the bits during the spartan training were really good but the actual invasion of reach was poorly thought out. That the best defended UNSC world fell in a single day, whereas harvest was fought over for more than 5 years, is ridiculous. Also the covenant somehow knew the location of every military base and orbital platform power plant and using only a few thousand phantoms managed to destroy them all, despite supposedly all the spartan IIs being on the planet to defend them. Someone please explain the logic behind that.[/quote]Someone please explain the logic of the UNSC having all of their remaining nukes out of Reach's system and not recalling them ahead of time when they declared Winter Contingency? Let alone how did a freaking super carrier even get to Reach without the UNSC detecting it exiting slipspace when the UNSC has post's set up all over the system to monitor slipspace travel? Halo: Reach's story was poorly thought out and it's writing was can be summed up as, "let's just think about a bunch of level scenario's, throw them together randomly and try to piece together a coherent story around it." Sure enough Halo: Reach was pretty incoherent. [Edited on 09.23.2012 8:40 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog The ONI Datadrops mean that [i]Reach[/i] more or less fits in perfectly with [i]The Fall of Reach.[/i] It's all retroactive excuses, but done incredibly well.[/quote] Also turns Parangosky into basically a traitor without a lick of intelligence... but oh well... (By that, I mean the fact she willingly tossed Reach to the Covenant just to get a ship to capture.[/quote] Halsey was in on it too. It was sound strategy and would have worked if it hadn't been for the unwillingness of the Autumn's crew to follow orders and stay out of the battle. Though, if they'd kidnapped Regret, I highly doubt Truth would have traded him back for a piece of chewing gum. [Edited on 09.23.2012 8:21 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog The ONI Datadrops mean that [i]Reach[/i] more or less fits in perfectly with [i]The Fall of Reach.[/i] It's all retroactive excuses, but done incredibly well.[/quote] Also turns Parangosky into basically a traitor without a lick of intelligence... but oh well... (By that, I mean the fact she willingly tossed Reach to the Covenant just to get a ship to capture. [Edited on 09.23.2012 8:16 AM PDT]

The ONI Datadrops mean that [i]Reach[/i] more or less fits in perfectly with [i]The Fall of Reach.[/i] It's all retroactive excuses, but done incredibly well.

Seems like all the action is gone, though. I'll just share a little secret with you. I haven't read any Halo books, so, for me, games are canon. Lol

I like the part where people recognize the troll attempt, call the OP out on it, yet still waste time and effort coming up with a response.

Sigh. I'll just toss it out there. There is no reason, at all, for the UNSC ground forces in The Fall of Reach to be unprepared. The SECOND the Covenant fleet was detected the ground forces and defenses should have been alerted and made ready for action. I do not think the "Reach was supposed to fall quickly for these reasons!" argument is bad, however, the Book depiction makes the UNSC kinda seem like idiots. Edit: And seriously, the whole statement of "You don't agree with my exact viewpoints, clearly you never played CE first of the games and/or started with Halo 3 or Reach." is just -blam!- stupid. OH. MY. -blam!-. GOD. SOMEBODY. HAS. A. DIFFERENT. VIEWPOINT. [Edited on 09.22.2012 7:38 PM PDT]