[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr TimothyLeary [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] lord of dahorde Come on people! Lets make this a new top topic![/quote]Why? It should have been locked pages ago. Everyone is just making the same statements over and over. There's no discussion left.[/quote] That is true, nothing new has come up in ages (except the fish article), and the thread is too long for people to re-read to find the answers to their questions.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] lord of dahorde Come on people! Lets make this a new top topic![/quote]Why? It should have been locked pages ago. Everyone is just making the same statements over and over. There's no discussion left.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Godlike Hunter Eating meat is a natural part of human life. We are adapted to eating meat, so there is nothing wrong with doing so. It is natural for one animal to die to provide food for another. I am so sick and tired of people saying all this crap about how inhumane it is, when eating meat is such a natural part of life.[/quote] Fails on account of so many levels. Check the last few pages, your points have been answered many a time.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr TimothyLeary You really are trying to make a career out of this thread, aren't you? Can you really argue in circles forever? It appears so.[/quote] People keep asking the same questions, I keep re-iterating answers to them.

Come on people! Lets make this a new top topic!

You really are trying to make a career out of this thread, aren't you? Can you really argue in circles forever? It appears so.

Eating meat is a natural part of human life. We are adapted to eating meat, so there is nothing wrong with doing so. It is natural for one animal to die to provide food for another. I am so sick and tired of people saying all this crap about how inhumane it is, when eating meat is such a natural part of life.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RdOG1507 [i][b]Murder[/b][/i] is the killing of another human being. Killing an animal is not murder. I guess some 9-year-old girl that has cows on her daddy's farm made that silly poem. Using animals' meat for food has been done forever. Since the beginning of time. Now, I'm hungry for some barbeque.[/quote] Official definitions aren't the point. Even if it was a 9 year old girl, the message is still the same. It is murder. Hypothetically, let's say another species evolved, to be exactly the same intelligence as humans, but they were reptilian, so it's clearly a different animal. Just because it's not human, doesn't mean it's not murder. The principle is the same, whether it's your official definition of murder or not, the meaning is the same. It's basically murder, you can coin a new word for it if you like. Animal Murder. And the fact we've been doing it for the beginning of time is false (well not completely, but it's not as you make out) and even if it was true, it doesn't change anything now as we don't need to do it. We've been killing each other since the beginning of time, but it's about time we stopped doing that. Because it's habit does not make it right.

[i][b]Murder[/b][/i] is the killing of another human being. Killing an animal is not murder. I guess some 9-year-old girl that has cows on her daddy's farm made that silly poem. Using animals' meat for food has been done forever. Since the beginning of time. Now, I'm hungry for some barbeque. [Edited on 12.27.2010 7:36 AM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] diadex [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] diadex Tell me how the nutritional value of meat effects the morality of eating it. Tell me why, exactly, I should care about a non-human, non-sapient, domesticated animal's life. One incapable of metacognition. Tell me how the evolutionary factors involved with meat-eating for humans effects the morality of eating it. Tell me why you think it is okay to eat plants but not animals. Tell me if you think it is okay for someone to eat meat if that is the only source of food available to them and why. Tell me if the manner in which an animal is killed effects the morality involved with eating that animal (ie, is it okay to eat animals if they are killed instantly and painlessly) and why. Awaiting a reply.[/quote] 1. That was an argument put forth by meat eaters. They said it was ok, because it was to make you healthy and to survive. 2. To answer this (well re-answer it, I'll quote someone else, proving it's been asked before. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b]G O R E 25 Just reading some of this thread makes me think how -blam!-ed up the world is, and the fact that in all realism corporations wouldn't feed anything to starving children if everyone was a vegetarian because they won't feed anything to them now, simply because they get nothing out of it. Many of the ignorant meat crazy people ITT refuse to even consider that there is preciousness to all life, aside from their own, or that we are capable of using our higher moral capabilities as opposed to simply saying that something is morally fine just because other animals do it... In all honesty the meat industry is just another testament to human selfishness and greed[/quote] 3. They can't physically feel, like animals do, like humans do. It seems people view animals as mere objects, like robots. 4. In the grand moral scale, it's debatable, who are we to take another animals life. But in all honesty, I would do it myself (probably) because it is a matter of survival then. 5. It does. If you torture an animal, it makes it worse of course. But if you kill the animal painlessly, and never torture it, it's still bad, because I cannot justify killing it for the taste. Ending another animals life. For reference, those questions have all been answered before, but it's a good summary and imo, those are fantastic questions.[/quote]I think you got your answers mixed up, because I asked six things, and you only answered five. 1. I didn't ask who put forth the argument. Please don't avoid answering my questions. In the thread, many people arguing against eating meat have tried to prove that eating meat is unhealthy. I asked why whether or not it is unhealthy to eat meat should effect the morality of eating it. 2. The only thing in your quote that came close to answering my question was when he said "Many of the ignorant meat crazy people ITT refuse to even consider that there is preciousness to all life, aside from their own", which only implies that he believes there is equal value in all life. He did not prove that there is equal value to all life. I asked you to justify your stance, not restate your position. 3. This is where you actually skipped my number three and went on to my next question. So what you are saying is that killing animals doesn't matter, it's only bad if they can feel it? Got it. 4. I don't know why you would eat an animal when it is apparently immoral. You don't have to eat it. You could always die. Why put the animal through that? Isn't all life precious and equal in value? Why is your life more important than the animal's? What you are saying is that it is only bad to eat animals when it is convenient to avoid doing so. 5. You said before that the reason it is fine to kill plants is because they "can't physically feel". If we make it so animals can't physically feel, what's the harm? Are you also saying it's bad to kill a plant if I like its taste? Awaiting another reply.[/quote] Oops sorry about mixing the answers up, I completely missed 3. I'll start again and answer your new questions :) 1. Hypothetically, let's say meat is necessary for survival. It becomes a matter of killing them or dying, then I believe it is justified to kill them. I'm not saying it's right, but it is a matter of survival of the fittest, and it's just the way the world works, that's a fair argument. I still do not justify torturing animals for survival, but to kill them to live is justifiable (not necessarily right). I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm selfish and greedy enough to value my own life higher than other peoples and animals (not necessarily the people I care about, but others). Like, I would kill someone who threatened my life, but I wouldn't kill someone to survive if they weren't the threat (well, I don't believe that it's right to do). Now let's say that meat isn't necessary for survival, but it has it's health benefits. I think it makes it more justifiable, but far from it, because a healthy diet can easily be obtained from other sources. Now let's say that meat is bad for you, it causes diseases (which to me seems the truth, mixed in with some benefits, such as effective protein intake) then I believe it's not only torturing and killing for greed, it becomes even greedier, because it's also bad for you. 2. You cannot prove there is a true value to anything, that's been proven by the meat - eaters. It's just something that you feel, you know, and I can't put it any better than, "there is a preciousness to all life, aside from your own". People here have shown that they just believe animals are unfeeling creatures, the same as an inanimate object, yet they don't understand that they can feel. Can you tell me that an animal's life is less worthy than yours? I can't tell you that it is precious, but can you tell me that it's not? If you can't, then who are you to take it's life away? 3. No, I'm saying it's worse if they can feel pain. The killing part (the physical act of killing) is ok, if it can't feel pain, but ending it's life, that's not our decision to make. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. 4. Refer to my point 1, the answer is the same. 5. To numb all feeling from an animal, and to do it so that it doesn't suffer it to also completely numb the mind too (it will still experience fear if it can't experience pain). So to do this, is the same as killing it. And since I don't believe plants can feel pain, or such like, I think it's ok to take a plants life (because it's not really alive anyway, it's like a computer in a way). So as long as it's not hurting the eco-system, it's not exactly murder to uproot a plant. 3 (Original 3). It doesn't affect it. If we don't NEED to eat meat, then we can't justify slaughtering them for food. The only reason I've argued that it's not evolutionary to eat meat (check our canines that can't rip through raw meat) is because it's another counter to the argument that we are designed to eat meat. If you can prove you aren't designed to eat meat, then they can't even argue that. But even if we were perfectly capable of eating meat, it still doesn't make it right. Thanks for the questions, I wasn't trying to avoid anything, sorry if it seems that way. [Edited on 12.27.2010 7:43 AM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] WhiffleBallTony [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I BlackDog l Dude, killing someones mom, a human being, is much worse than killing a cow, an animal. Animals aren't people. They don't have meta-cognitive thought.[/quote] Yes it is much worse, but it doesn't change the fact that it's bad. And they have feelings, they feel pain, that's all that matters.[/quote]Does that mean that a cheetah eating a gazelle is immoral? Should we make all carnivores into herbivores? After all, they are causing other animals pain.[/quote] No but being intelligent enough to understand the pain we are causing is what makes it different for us.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] PETA Employee [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mickey1980 Are any of the animals I eat even capable of metacognition? Didn't think so. Given this, what is the difference between eating a plant and eating an animal? [/quote] Idiocy at its best.[/quote] Haha, the best part is that it's been answered countlessly too.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] N7R [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX And irrelevant, it's still wrong to eat fish even. We've argued this countless times now![/quote] maybe it's wrong in your opinion but it's not wrong to me.[/quote] Sorry, that's what I meant. It's wrong to me to eat fish, but I can understand people justifying that one.

Oh, Heavens, no, don't let the thread die quietly! Drag it out longer than anyone cares to read it!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NorbergK6 I'd rather not eat fish... I can't define the texture the way I perceive it, but it's like small diamond shaped gels that spread apart with a taste of butter... Gross...[/quote] I'm not really that into bony fish either, but I love oysters and clams[/quote]Seafood is more general.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mickey1980 Are any of the animals I eat even capable of metacognition? Didn't think so. Given this, what is the difference between eating a plant and eating an animal? [/quote] Idiocy at its best.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NorbergK6 I'd rather not eat fish... I can't define the texture the way I perceive it, but it's like small diamond shaped gels that spread apart with a taste of butter... Gross...[/quote] I'm not really that into bony fish either, but I love oysters and clams

I'd rather not eat fish... I can't define the texture the way I perceive it, but it's like small diamond shaped gels that spread apart with a taste of butter... Gross...

Fish is what we really are meant to eat.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 Holy crap its that acidic? Thats crazy! No wonder heartburn hurts so bad...[/quote] Sucks to have acid reflux. Also you're sarcasm is unnecessary.[/quote] I wasn't trying to be sarcastic I was truly shocked, before I thought gastric acid was like a Ph of 4 or 5 at the lowest.[/quote] My apologies. You've been informed.

There was once a scientist who took actual stomach acid from a human, it had the same affect on meat and other food, thus proving we are omnivores, designed to eat meat.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NorbergK6 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 So its wrong to eat fish despite the fact we are specifically designed for it?[/quote] I wouldn't say we're designed for it, but we revolve around it.[/quote] I don't really understand, did you mean we evolved doing it?[/quote] Eh... I guess, nobody births a child and says he is going to eat roots for the rest of his life. It's just genetic traits passed on from one to another.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 Holy crap its that acidic? Thats crazy! No wonder heartburn hurts so bad...[/quote] Sucks to have acid reflux. Also you're sarcasm is unnecessary.[/quote] I wasn't trying to be sarcastic I was truly shocked, before I thought gastric acid was like a Ph of 4 or 5 at the lowest.

this man has been noinated for troll of the year

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX Our stomach acid is the same strength as a herbivores.[/quote] Prove it. If you think just because our stomach is acidic as a herbivore's stomach, then you're an idiot. Humans are omnivores. Both plants and animals are our main sources of food, not one or the other.[/quote] I believe that because of the list I posted. I can accept that maybe I was misinformed, maybe I wasn't. But I'm not about to test the pH of our stomachs and a herbivores stomach.[/quote]Gastric acid is made up of HCL,KCL, and NaCL. Our stomach acid has a pH of 1 or 2. I'm pretty sure that's more acidic than a herbivore. Wanna know why? Because humans are omnivores. [/quote] Holy crap its that acidic? Thats crazy! No wonder heartburn hurts so bad...[/quote]Ever heard of stomach acid?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jondoe4362 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tomahawker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] XII CIUTCH IIX Our stomach acid is the same strength as a herbivores.[/quote] Prove it. If you think just because our stomach is acidic as a herbivore's stomach, then you're an idiot. Humans are omnivores. Both plants and animals are our main sources of food, not one or the other.[/quote] I believe that because of the list I posted. I can accept that maybe I was misinformed, maybe I wasn't. But I'm not about to test the pH of our stomachs and a herbivores stomach.[/quote]Gastric acid is made up of HCL,KCL, and NaCL. Our stomach acid has a pH of 1 or 2. I'm pretty sure that's more acidic than a herbivore. Wanna know why? Because humans are omnivores. [/quote] Holy crap its that acidic? Thats crazy! No wonder heartburn hurts so bad...[/quote] Sucks to have acid reflux. Also you're sarcasm is unnecessary.