[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JoeSki73 Suck it haters! The Cage is a good map and I appreciate Carney taking the time to drop some knowledge on us fools. Thanks man![/quote] If by suck it, you mean the rest of us are meant to suffer through cage and atom then yes we are all 'sucking' it. It is also a shame that Atom was recognized, because you're part of a community that has close ties to Bungie not because atom was actually good, over other forge created maps that show intelligent design and flow, especially when you consider where players respawn. Seriously Joe, did you not watch films of gameplay and see the amazing predictability of your respawn points? I don't like to hate on people, but it's a pain to play competitively on maps that aren't geared towards competitive play. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Severan All this trash talk 'bout The Cage. Yeah, it's got two long walkways covered by a single tower. This, my friends, is why you A) have grenades and B) have multiple areas outside those hallways to fight in. you also have the covered fire positions from which you can easily countersnipe using the comparatively large number of DMRs and Needle Rifles all over the map. There are also the heavy weaponsn to consider, but any sniper worth his salt will have probably secured those before moving into the sniper tower. If you don't like the map, you need to learn new tactics. Myself, I hated Pinnacle until I started varying my tactics. Improvise, adapt, overcome.[/quote] Putting the blame on the player instead of poor design is pretty stupid. The sniper tower is a bad position to be in, whether you have the lead or not. From the tower there are only two ways out, one towards healthpack, which has a bridge taking you to bottom mid, which is a worse position to be in than being holed up in the sniper tower, so why on earth would you leave, when you're going to be forced down there anyways. The other way out is through the mancannon, which to get there is almost certain death. Mancannoning will lead to death. Now for the other team to attack you would require them giving up top control to come after you, which would in turn mean that, if they killed you, you're going to respawn top healthpack. But you're most likely not going to kill anyone because one team is dispersed along one long LOS which mean they all have each others back's. But of course, you have grenades to rain down on people that are crouching behind cover, so getting a kill is lucky at best. No, there are not multiple pathways, that's the problem in the first place. Nitwit. Pinnacle is good, for blue team spawn. Srsly please move rockets to the middle of the dish or add OS back. It's an incredibly one-sided slayer map, which was designed for one sided objective play. The only real tactic to the cage is gain top control so you can force a team to spawn at sniper tower or bottom mid.

Your right about using grenades and what not. Tactic dosent really get you anywhere when the opposite team camps in corners the whole map.. Pinnacle is a terrible map.. that is all

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rusty eagle [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JoeSki73 Suck it haters! The Cage is a good map and I appreciate Carney taking the time to drop some knowledge on us fools. Thanks man![/quote] If by suck it, you mean the rest of us are meant to suffer through cage and atom then yes we are all 'sucking' it. It is also a shame that Atom was recognized, because you're part of a community that has close ties to Bungie not because atom was actually good, over other forge created maps that show intelligent design and flow, especially when you consider where players respawn. Seriously Joe, did you not watch films of gameplay and see the amazing predictability of your respawn points? I don't like to hate on people, but it's a pain to play competitively on maps that aren't geared towards competitive play. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Severan All this trash talk 'bout The Cage. Yeah, it's got two long walkways covered by a single tower. This, my friends, is why you A) have grenades and B) have multiple areas outside those hallways to fight in. you also have the covered fire positions from which you can easily countersnipe using the comparatively large number of DMRs and Needle Rifles all over the map. There are also the heavy weaponsn to consider, but any sniper worth his salt will have probably secured those before moving into the sniper tower. If you don't like the map, you need to learn new tactics. Myself, I hated Pinnacle until I started varying my tactics. Improvise, adapt, overcome.[/quote] Putting the blame on the player instead of poor design is pretty stupid. The sniper tower is a bad position to be in, whether you have the lead or not. From the tower there are only two ways out, one towards healthpack, which has a bridge taking you to bottom mid, which is a worse position to be in than being holed up in the sniper tower, so why on earth would you leave, when you're going to be forced down there anyways. The other way out is through the mancannon, which to get there is almost certain death. Mancannoning will lead to death. Now for the other team to attack you would require them giving up top control to come after you, which would in turn mean that, if they killed you, you're going to respawn top healthpack. But you're most likely not going to kill anyone because one team is dispersed along one long LOS which mean they all have each others back's. But of course, you have grenades to rain down on people that are crouching behind cover, so getting a kill is lucky at best. No, there are not multiple pathways, that's the problem in the first place. Nitwit. Pinnacle is good, for blue team spawn. Srsly please move rockets to the middle of the dish or add OS back. It's an incredibly one-sided slayer map, which was designed for one sided objective play. The only real tactic to the cage is gain top control so you can force a team to spawn at sniper tower or bottom mid.[/quote] This right here ^ I mean why the hell would I take forge tips from a guy who created arguably one of the worst maps ever put into a halo game. Next I'm going to learn that he was the one behind backwash, Elongation, and Epitaph

Im sorry bungie, but the cage is the biggest fail map ever.. *along with the spawn system =\ just saying.

This really was a great read and very insightful. In my opinion though, The Cage is one of the worst maps in Halo history, ranking right up there with Backwash. I know some people love the map. Again, just my opinion.

That was a great article. As a graphic designer I have to applaud, support, and recommend the the idea of sketching out ideas before constructing them in forge. You can make a lot of progress and improvements very quickly before you even get to building it in 3D. Overall things will turn out better and happen much more quickly, regardless of your artistic ability on paper.

Can you post some links to video showing what the problem with The Cage is? Or can anyone else? Because given the amount of times I've played it I think I would have detected if there was something fundamentally wrong with it. And I don't believe there is. Most games have been fairly close and quite fun.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RealEphrum Why do people automatically assume that just because someone doesn't like something, it's because they're not good at it? It's just not a good map. In any sense. You can disect and figure it out all you want on your own, it doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't play well (except maybe in Snipers... for some reason it's not horrible then).[/quote] Because most criticism, particularly from gamers, is framed that way. They don't like something because they lose. They lose because they're not that good. Then they complain and are unable to articulate why they don't like it. As I've said before map appreciation comes down to your individual experience and what gametypes were used. It's unlikely to play 100% brilliantly in every possible mode. [Edited on 11.04.2010 8:47 PM PDT]

Do your own goddamn job, lazy asss bungie.

"Putting the blame on the player" for bad map design is pretty much the only thing you can do, Rusty. This is, of course, assuming you are stating that "the map is a bad map" and not that "it's the player's fault the map was designed that way." The map was designed by Bungie folks, playtested, added to the basic map package, and shipped that way. The person who mentioned it being impossible for a map to play well in all gametypes was correct - it simply doesn't happen. To further that statement, there are different groups of gamers out there with different playstyles. Some are point-to-point, team-fire players, and others are the lone-wolves that move in random patterns using whatever weapons are available. Point to point movement works pretty well on Cage, but is definitely not suitable for Countdown (too many ways to get surrounded). I'm not going to go into a full dissertation on what strategies work best on which maps. Hell, my own strategies might not even work for the next player in line. Unless I'm mistaken here, the majority of complaints with Cage come from the competative side side of the community. It's rough if you get boxed in on the sniper tower and those two pathways leading out with it. I'll grant you that. It's not impossible to break out of, though. I've done it. Granted, I haven't done it in arena. This is not suprising, though, because I think I can count the number of Arena games I've played on two hands (if that). I play casual/competative - team slayer, etc, but not for rank. I'm nowhere near that competative when it comes to my online gaming. Bungie is left at three-way fork in the road. Please part of the community by making sure only to produce and/or push maps that are geared to competative/arena players, push/produce maps that are only geared toward casual/recreational players, or continue a damned good record of pushing maps that work well for both. It really does come back down on each individual player as to which map is good for them and which isn't. Just beacuse a map doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's a bad map. It just means your playstyle is particularly suited for that map. You don't have to vote for it, nor do you have to play the match when it is voted for. This is, of course, assuming you haven't quit the preset number of quittable matches before going on probation. After all, those of us that utterly despise Paradiso, Boardwalk, or Power House have the same choice when those maps come up. I can't repeat it enough times: You can't possibly please EVERYONE all the time.

On a related note, I'd like to see someone put forward a built-in map that =everyone= can agree is a good map.

Reading this really makes me want to forge a map now. :P

[quote]The cage is =not= a bad map. Period. The people who hate it are the ones that can't figure out how to beat the campers. Learn that, and the map will be less irritating. Also, you'll find that you complain less. Go into Forge. Study the map. Look for weaknesses. Look for angles for grenade throws. Stop whining. If you want a remake done, read the article. When you've finished that, go into Forge and build it. There are at least 50 threads dedicated to map remakes if you want to just download one and not go through the trouble of building it. Although, if you are going to just go download instead of build, you pretty much missed the point of the article in the first place.[/quote] @Severan Sthu kid, you suck at halo anyway. Anyone with a k/d ration below 1.0 should really not be giving any advice on how to play halo. The cage is a completely horrible map. Quit trying to be a kiss ass.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] driedroasted [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RealEphrum Why do people automatically assume that just because someone doesn't like something, it's because they're not good at it? It's just not a good map. In any sense. You can disect and figure it out all you want on your own, it doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't play well (except maybe in Snipers... for some reason it's not horrible then).[/quote] Because most criticism, particularly from gamers, is framed that way. They don't like something because they lose. They lose because they're not that good. Then they complain and are unable to articulate why they don't like it. As I've said before map appreciation comes down to your individual experience and what gametypes were used. It's unlikely to play 100% brilliantly in every possible mode.[/quote]I think The Cage is the worst map to ship on the disc and it's the same map I got my Perfection on.

halo2 maps are baaaad i wish bungie would bring back the 2 best maps of the halo universe vahala and sandtrap. its a unanamis vote in my town of Quincy Illinois

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] rusty eagle [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JoeSki73 Suck it haters! The Cage is a good map and I appreciate Carney taking the time to drop some knowledge on us fools. Thanks man![/quote] If by suck it, you mean the rest of us are meant to suffer through cage and atom then yes we are all 'sucking' it. It is also a shame that Atom was recognized, because you're part of a community that has close ties to Bungie not because atom was actually good, over other forge created maps that show intelligent design and flow, especially when you consider where players respawn. Seriously Joe, did you not watch films of gameplay and see the amazing predictability of your respawn points? I don't like to hate on people, but it's a pain to play competitively on maps that aren't geared towards competitive play.[/quote]lol

Amazing write up! Just when i think I'm doing the three things I should be doing, I find more things I need to do. I have always supported the orientation and navigation philosophy. What I'm bad about is deep thinking about sight lines. Hard points was a great lesson! Bravo! More please!

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Remember TF [quote]The cage is =not= a bad map. Period. The people who hate it are the ones that can't figure out how to beat the campers. Learn that, and the map will be less irritating. Also, you'll find that you complain less. Go into Forge. Study the map. Look for weaknesses. Look for angles for grenade throws. Stop whining. If you want a remake done, read the article. When you've finished that, go into Forge and build it. There are at least 50 threads dedicated to map remakes if you want to just download one and not go through the trouble of building it. Although, if you are going to just go download instead of build, you pretty much missed the point of the article in the first place.[/quote] @Severan Sthu kid, you suck at halo anyway. Anyone with a k/d ration below 1.0 should really not be giving any advice on how to play halo. The cage is a completely horrible map. Quit trying to be a kiss ass.[/quote] @Remember TF: There is more to halo than your Multiplayer Matchmaking K/D Ratio, "Kid." I see you have all of the achievements for the game, so you must know that is true as well. Instead of telling me to STHU, why don't you sit back, have a coke and a smile, and farm some more credits so you can actually pass me up in rank. Those are pretty onyx-level target locator commendations you have there, by the way. Yeah, that was a cheapshot. Not gonna bother hiding it, either. A word of advice? Stop trying to look like a bad-ass gamer-god when it's obvious you didn't really work for your rank in the first place. You are committing two fouls here: 1) you are acting tough on the internet (which very rarely works to anyone's advantage), and 2) you think you are cool because you are good at a video game (which has the same problem). Take a good look at your rank vs mine. Without that target locator farming, you wouldn't be anywhere close. [Edited on 11.05.2010 6:51 AM PDT]

I just wish they could make halo's map/battlefield more realistic. Like cover systems, being able to shoot through some walls and all that. NOt everything SET in place.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] JoeSki73 lol[/quote] lol indeed

[quote]Posted by: Remember TF The cage is =not= a bad map. Period. The people who hate it are the ones that can't figure out how to beat the campers. Learn that, and the map will be less irritating. Also, you'll find that you complain less. Go into Forge. Study the map. Look for weaknesses. Look for angles for grenade throws. Stop whining. If you want a remake done, read the article. When you've finished that, go into Forge and build it. There are at least 50 threads dedicated to map remakes if you want to just download one and not go through the trouble of building it. Although, if you are going to just go download instead of build, you pretty much missed the point of the article in the first place. @Severan Sthu kid, you suck at halo anyway. Anyone with a k/d ration below 1.0 should really not be giving any advice on how to play halo. The cage is a completely horrible map. Quit trying to be a kiss ass. @Remember TF: There is more to halo than your Multiplayer Matchmaking K/D Ratio, "Kid." I see you have all of the achievements for the game, so you must know that is true as well. Instead of telling me to STHU, why don't you sit back, have a coke and a smile, and farm some more credits so you can actually pass me up in rank. Those are pretty onyx-level target locator commendations you have there, by the way. Yeah, that was a cheapshot. Not gonna bother hiding it, either. A word of advice? Stop trying to look like a bad-ass gamer-god when it's obvious you didn't really work for your rank in the first place. You are committing two fouls here: 1) you are acting tough on the internet (which very rarely works to anyone's advantage), and 2) you think you are cool because you are good at a video game (which has the same problem). Take a good look at your rank vs mine. Without that target locator farming, you wouldn't be anywhere close.[/quote] @Severan No -blam!- there is more to halo than k/d ratio, but when you are talking about how to kill people on the cage strategies; you are probably the last person to look for due to you -blam!- k/d ratio. And ranks don't even matter to me. Yea I boosted because I want some armor that gives aesthetic looks only. It doesn't degrade nor upgrade my playing skill, so I don't why you give a damn about my rank. Your "fouls" are pretty stupid if you ask me, because its your opinion of whether or not I act like a badass. You're the one implying that I am trying to act like a badass after 3 sentences, one stating my reason of argument. Rank is completely out of the picture, it has no relation to your previously bs advice. All you can give advice for is how to fly around with a jetpark in firefight, while using a rocket launcher. You haven't even played as much multiplayer as me or many others, so you are in no position to give -blam!- advice on why the horrible map is good. Also you have played well over a week's worth of Halo Reach, so I would be disappointed if you weren't a higher rank than me. Considering I have played a little over half of that and yet I have over double your mp kills. So yea STHU and scoff down a box of Twinkies while flying around thinking you are so cool because you can blow up aliens that hardly do -blam!- to you. Those Onyx's gave me about 16k worth of xp. Even if I hadn't done that, I would have had over 3/4s of your credits under half the time.

@Remember TF: Thank you for so eloquently proving my point for me. I can definitely see that your method of play makes Cage garbage for you, based alone on your attitude. If I were one of the self-styled "elite" of gaming, I'd probably have the same -blam!- self-centered attitude and the impression that Bungie exists only to please myself. Thankfully, I don't have that attitude. I know that Bungie, like all business, will attempt to cater to as many people as possible. While you are stomping around a forum page all big and bad and shouting at the top of your lungs that the map is pure garbage, there are others of us who enjoy the map quite thoroughly. Why? Different attitude and/or different playstyle. You can argue all you want, make wisecracks against me all you want, and try to feel as cool as you can. In fact, your first statement to me was a direct attack against me in an attempt to discredit anything I might have said. You'll probably say you are intelligent if asked, but regardless I urge you to look up the definition of "Ad Hominem." Ultimately, your statements (if not made in a constructive, polite manner) will have as little effect on their intended targets as a mosquito will against a freight train. You can get your last word in now. Since you have the debate talents of an emo tweenager, I'm done arguing with you. Food for thought: the last or loudest word in an argument isn't always the correct one. As far as Bungie is concerned, THEIR last word on the map is the correct one... which means, at this moment, the map is fine as is.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] driedroasted Can you post some links to video showing what the problem with The Cage is? Or can anyone else? Because given the amount of times I've played it I think I would have detected if there was something fundamentally wrong with it. And I don't believe there is. Most games have been fairly close and quite fun.[/quote] The Cage is a really awesome map. It has no flaws and I love everything about it, but my favorite part is probably the fantastic [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5uoiF_BWiM]spawning setup[/url].

@Severan Dude, how am I stomping around the forums yelling at the top of my lungs that this map is garbage? Yea I have said that this map is garbage, but my first post was the only one that really mentioned that post, and no emphasis was even put into it. You keep going back to this subject about me trying to be cool? I could give a crap less of what people on a forum think of me. This isn't a popularity contest. The only reason I called out you is because you are one of about 5 people on this thread that tries to convince gamers that a poorly made is actually good. Yea Bungie is a business, you even said that they will do what the community wants. So if they will do what the community wants, look at all of the previous posts. I guarantee that the majority of plays dislike this map. In this overall thread, your argument of approving the cage is like a mosquito to a freight train, and the others who like this map are just other random insects. Everyone is on board with the fact that the cage is horrible. Petty advice won't change that.

Something that no one else has brought up about the article yet was the bit on balancing infantry and vehicles. This is actually an issue that I'm having with a map of my own that I'm designing presently (UT3, not Forge. Sorry). I think that the whole U-shaped canyon thing that Avalanche, Danger Canyon and Sidewinder did was an inspired solution. The main canyon area gives the vehicles plenty of space to murder each other, while the in-between-the-bases areas provide a space where the on-foot players can get to each others' bases in a reasonable amount of time without having to worry about getting rocked by a tank. A wise man once told me that the average walking speed of a video game character is 5 mph, whereas the average vehicle speed is 50 mph. That means that any vehicular space has to be ten times larger. Of course, this also means that the on-foot player takes ten time longer to traverse the space, which gets boring fast, especially when that walk ends with a tank shell to the face. Sidewinder and Avalanche did a good job of solving that with the man-cannons/teleports, but I was wondering what other sorts of solutions other people have come up with. What I'd really like to see is some sort of Bungie.net weekly column on various map-design issues. It's really great for aspiring Forgers when these sorts of articles show up, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say I'd like to see more of them. Also: Cage is fine. If you hate it so much, veto it when it shows up.

@Mooser323 We both know that vetoing doesn't always work our way.