Before I move onto this second long post. I would like to thank everyone who has posted, be it with kind remarks and thank yous, or arguments against my view. If you disagree, I would much rather debate it with you, than you stay silent. Now, moving on: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superfonz666 May I say that, although our opinions differ, I respect you for being mature during a debate.[/quote] Thank you, I do enjoy this, although it is at some points draining. [quote]Okay fair enough, but surely you agree that the issue is reversable, and just as valid when reversed?[/quote]Very much so, even to some stronger degrees. It is just that I do not think that it is as common. [quote]Here is the article I found the statistics in; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornographic_actor#Pay_rates I hope you have the sense not to refute it simply because it is wikipedia, this article is well referenced. It is actually very hard to find anything on this subject that is not from the point of religious fundementalists or conservative nuts like Fox, comdemning p0rn just because it's p0rn. However, this find was interesting; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_workers%27_rights#Forced_prostitution People in the secks industry have had their rights campaigned successfuly and are now not discriminated against, noteably in the section "The Declaration of the Rights of Secks Workers in Europe (2005)". Again it's not the issue at hand, but extremely related.[/quote]I don't think you quite get what I mean, let me get a link to show you, just so we are on the same page... [quote]And the people who filmed it and put it up on the internet are well aware of this. In fact most people watch ameature (including myself) because it is genuine, and I can tell the people in it enjoy it. But this is not what I am limited to, of course I enjoy some more depraved things, but I know they are unrealistic for a real-life desire, and so, should I imagine, would anyone with half as much common sense as I.[/quote]Just because they know that it is happening, does not make it any more correct. I hate to use an analogy (I am told by those which know me that I use them far too much...) but say someone posted a video of them killing some one else, just because the person who posted it enjoys it, and knows that people who are watching it will objectify the person being killed, does not make it any more acceptable. I understand the difference between my example and that of amateur p0rn, but I think that the same basic logic applies. [quote]Another thing is this; if, as you argue, it is wrong to objectify women, shouldn't it therefore be immoral to compliment them on your looks? Hence, phrases like "your hair looks nice today" or " you look attractive" would become taboo.[/quote]Not really, they are compliments, you say them to make the person feel better about themselves, which is totally different to objectifying women. You are still respecting the individual, and you are simply stating something about their appearance, not using their appearance for your own pleasure, turning them into an object for your use, nothing more. [quote]Again, does a woman (or anyone!) not love, nay, crave being complimented on their looks?[/quote]See above. [quote]This is my opinion, but the body and mind are two completely seperate things, you must agree.[/quote]In once sense yes, but they are also very closely linked. [quote]Every person has the right to do what they please with their body, many of which I don't agree with, but it is their freedom and I will allow it.[/quote]On one level I say that we should have freedom, but say I wanted to use my body to become a child rapist, would you still allow it? [quote]Analogy; would you judge a scientist first by his work, or his personality? Obviously it would be the first one, his work. And is this wrong or right? Well neither, really, but it certainly is acceptable. Can the same not apply to a p0rn actor/actress? Of course it can![/quote]Interesting point. But you are not treating the scientist himself as an object, just his published work, which differs, because the work [b]is[/b] an object, and is not an individual. [quote]Now, just because this man is a scientist, would people expect him to invent reliable jetpacks, or time travel? Of course not, his field is probably observing bacteria, or studying tectonic trends. However, with fictional sceintists, the impossible can be expected; Gordon Freeman, Dr. Frankenstein, even Doc Brown are all examples. Now the same applies to (as one lad afew posts back put it) "Hollywood p0rn" - the scenarioes, sets, people, are all deliberately fictional or extreme because of the same reason - fantasy. Essentially, people who argue p0rn is wrong are the same people (or mindset of people) who argued that DnD was wrong back in the 70's because it was "satanic".[/quote]Again, p0rn stars are individuals, they are encouraging these more extreme types of sex. You can argue that they never mean it to be replicated, but many people wish that it could be. The difference between not actually being live on Pandora and be an Avatar and p0rn in this case, is that often although people want both, they blame their partner if they don't get this fantasy intercourse. [quote]Of course it is shallow! Infact I think in my previos comment I voiced my distaste for casual secks. However you are implying that p0rn and secks are the same thing. That's like saying Call of Duty and the real fighting in the middle East or in WW2 are the same thing. And before anyone mentions it, no, vidoegames do not promote violence in [b] psychiologically healthy [/b] individuals.[/quote]Its not like saying Call of Duty and fighting in the middle East are the same thing, as the characters and people in Call of Duty aren't real, they aren't even actors. Also, when playing Call of Duty, you aren't actually watching real people being killed, even if it was in a slightly unrealistic way, you knew it was totally fake. With p0rn, it is actually two people having intercourse, in some cases it may still be over the top, but the act is still taking place. You said you liked watching amateur p0rn which is more realistic, this isn't fake at all, so it isn't like Call of Duty at all. [quote]Cheers for understanding, I tend to write in one long, articulated vomit of information and then ammend it later.[/quote]No problem :) I am just thankful someone invented the enter button... [quote]I agree but both have significant effects on people.[/quote]No longer anything to debate here. [quote]Cheating is a real, physical act of betrayal.[/quote] -blam!-ion is a physical act, and watching something to stimulate it is also just as 'real', the betrayal although may not quite be equal, it close in the minds of many partners. [quote]It can cause the spread of (deadly) STDs/STI's including AIDs.[/quote]Sure, but in many cases that isn't why the partner is upset about someone cheating. [quote]In many places it is also illegal (even if in the same place polygamy is accepted). It is especially detremantal to families, if one partner cheats[/quote] I agree, but that is because I think that it is more in the open, I have talked to people who were totally distraught after finding downloaded p0rn on their boyfriends computer. [quote](which brings up the point that it is unjust that a woman gains custordy of children something like 80% of the time in divorce court cases, regardless of who is the guilty party).[/quote] Totally agree. [quote]Also the person who cheats will then become undesireable by future potential partners for being unfaithful, and the "victim" (I am unsure of what term to use here) will become undesireable because they may be seen as an unworthy partner, if it was their fault the cheating occured (by driving away their partner with abuse, lack of intimacy, drug addiction, etc).[/quote] Some times, but it is surprising how many people re-marry even after being unfaithful (sure it may break up again, but that does not change that fact that they were desirable) [quote]Cheating is a percieved act of betrayal. There is no physical cheating occuring with p0rn, other than the false perception in the other half's mind. p0rn does not cause any negative health effects (on a psychologically healthy indiviual). Neither would cause any family problems within a family if it were accepted, because even if the other partner is aware, it can be easily hidden from children who are too young to see that sort of thing (eg about 13 or below).[/quote] P0rn can be seen as an act of betrayal, there is a physical act of -blam!-ion while watching p0rn. Cheating (if accepted) would cause no family problems, some stars are unfaithful all the time and it doesn't effect them, but they are a tiny minority, and IMO there is no point in them being together. [quote]With p0rn there is realistically no victim, unless one half is, as I said before, unstable.[/quote] The family can be a victim, if the husband is tired of his wife, and wont give up his satisfaction which he gets from p0rn. [quote]No worries, I think the Flood needs some (fairly) intelligent and mature debate.[/quote] Intelligent debate on the flood? I never thought I would see the day! :P But really, I do enjoy arguing/debating with others, because even if I don't change the others mind, it secures in my own mind, my personal beliefs. I thank you for taking the time to answer and ask questions, prying deeper into my own mind and thought process. [i]- JFKES[/i]