I must ask because it is starting to constipate me. Why does everyone need to try and cheese the Templar in VoG? I have recently run 3 hard modes with 3 different groups. The first was with my clan that we have moved from MW3 to Ghosts and now to Destiny. All together we have over 50 raids as a group, mainly normal, but recently been doing hard mode. With everyone taking care of a certain area, we beat VoG hard in 55 minutes with zero cheesing. (Besides the Titan superman over the maze part - that's my favorite!) The second run was with a new group of guys I have been running Crota with. When we got to the oracles and templar parts, they all wanted to try staying on the back wall. In short we finally had to move down to the bottom because we failed multiple times of getting ALL the oracles. When we finally beat the oracles, no one wanted to go down again. Send one down to run the relic and the other 5 will stay up top. In the end the relic holder (resing warlock) died so many times we had to jump down and pass it the way bungie intended... which surprise surprise, took less time than all the time we wasted hanging on the back wall. This run took us just over 1.5 hours to complete. The last run was what was most infuriating to me... During the oracle fight there was the strategy of using Super Good Advice to kill the oracles. I prefer to keep my heavy for the minutours that come out, but whatevs. When I ask about using something with oracle disrupter the response I get is (fatebringer or Vision aren't powerful enough) when we kept dying because the Super good advice side couldn't kill the oracles, we kept seeing the ones with the fatebringer and vision had the most oracle kills.. interesting... When we finally made it to the templar, no one wanted to kill the oracles and just bunch up on the upper right side. This can work but you spend sooo much time waiting for the oracle to mark you and then cleansing... There were 4 times that we hit enraged mode (8 minutes I think) and the templar still wasn't dead... Is it really that hard to spread out a bit and actually use your radar to see where the enemies are?? This raid ended up taking just under 2 hours.. In summary, when done the right way, the non cheesing of the templar and oracles is definitely faster than trying to cheese. So why does EVERYONE want to try and cheese first??